Talk:Show Boat
Show Boat was one of the Media and drama good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 27, 2011. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
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Principal roles
editWe have reached the point of more heat than light. Several editors have explained core policies such as V, OR, and RS to B C R M. There is a clear consensus to not designate which roles are principal/leading in the list of charaters. It is time for B C R M to drop the stick. If they continue, I would be more than happy to partial block them for disruptive editing. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 14:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The article does not distinguish the five principal singing roles, a clear deficiency. Two methods I have tried, asterisks and footnote, have been reversed. There is no obvious place to go for a citation. Nor is this a matter of "original research" in that nobody would dispute which of the 12 or 13 solo roles we are talking about. So how do we overcome the deficiency? B C R M (talk) 11:03, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Of course it’s damaging. Aside from the fact people lose confidence if information is unsourced, without citations we end up with people adding trivia (like who are a “principals” in a show), and worse, they get it wrong, disagreeing with better sources than their own opinion. - SchroCat (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
We list 13 roles, undifferentiated. This does not much help the reader. The Rodgers & Hammerstein Organization (not a great source) lists 10 “main characters” and 2 “supporting characters.” StageAgent (ditto) lists 16 “characters” classified as 5 “leads,” 7 “supporting” and 4 “featured.” In fact there are 5 principal singing roles (not aligned with StageAgent’s “leads”). These are clearly identifiable from the score, which is of course the only source that matters, and they should accordingly be identified in our article. I propose the addition to the list of the 3 missing characters and the following line at the start of the “Roles” section: Note: Julie, Magnolia, Queenie, Ravenal and Joe are the principal singing roles. Or asterisks by these in the list followed by an explanation. I suggest that editors involved in musical theatre obtain for themselves an education in the “utility” (Ssilvers’ word) for readers, especially readers new to a subject, of identified principal singing roles. It matters. It is, as illustration, the first breakdown at the above two source sites. Moreover, nobody wants to be confronted by a tag-team armed with wp:original research, wp:reliable source, wp:v, wp:civil, when they are trying to contribute, and this type of tool use runs counter to the recent messages I have received as a new account holder. B C R M (talk) 08:16, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
This needs to be its own topic because the whole point is that a "principal" role such as Mrs Hawks is not necessarily a singing one. B C R M (talk) 09:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC) |
GA concerns
editI am concerned that this article does not meet the good article criteria anymore. Some of my concerns are listed below:
- There is uncited text throughout the article, and an orange "more citations needed" since 2015.
- The "Analysis" relies on block quotes, and should instead summarise the information in prose.
- The article uses citations from IMDB, and the Amazon citations should be evaluated for its inclusion.
Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 01:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
editThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • Most recent review
- Result: Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
There is uncited text throughout the article, and an orange "more citations needed" since 2015. The "Analysis" relies on block quotes, and should instead summarise the information in prose. The article uses citations from IMDB, and the Amazon citations should be evaluated for its inclusion. Z1720 (talk) 21:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Ferber and her novel Show Boat
edit@Ssilvers I have now completed writing this sub-section. I incorporated the facts that were previously copyright infringed but in new language and with a lot of new material so that the article is no longer plagiarizing. I still have to address the copyright violation material in the adapting the novel section which I am moving on to next after I do some more research/reading. I would appreciate any copy editing or feedback on the "Ferber and her novel Show Boat" sub-section. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- I gave it a once-through, but it is still too long, because this is the article about the musical, not the book. All of this is good stuff but needs to be summarized more in this article -- though, by all means, add it to Show Boat (novel). I'd say that it should still be cut by, ideally 40%. If you want me to try to make the painful cuts, let me know. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Ssilvers Agreed, let me finish writing the adapting the novel section. Once that is written, I think we'll have a better overall view to help make trimming decisions. You have a better critical eye for cuts than I do. It's one your strengths as an editor, so I'll leave it to you to decide what we should keep and what should be thrown out. Best.4meter4 (talk) 20:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Just for fun, if you have never seen the movie, here is the great Kathryn Grayson singing "Make Believe" and "You Are Love" with Howard Keel. Her vocal style (and that of Magnolia in the musical) is not much influenced by black music as Ferber intended, but they don't make 'em like this anymore. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Ssilvers Yes, I actually watched the Grayson and Keel movie for the first time the night before you posted to the musical theatre wikiproject page. It was odd timing, as if the fates knew I was about to start editing this page. lol Grayson's vibrato kind of annoys me, but somehow Keel's voice blends nicely with hers and I enjoy her voice when she sings with him, just not by herself. Interestingly, several of the books I am reading say the Show Boat (1951 film) is the weakest of the film adaptations. All of them go out of their way to praise the Show Boat (1929 film) as the best. Here are few interesting clips of Hattie McDaniel with Robson and Helen Morgan from the Show Boat (1936 film) Ah Still Suits Me" and Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man. I would be interested in catching these older films which both got better reception in the books.4meter4 (talk) 20:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Those are great clips. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- I thought so. You can tell the actors have lived with these characters for a while on stage prior to filming it. There's just something so appealing about their performances that I think is hard to replicate for film actors new to their parts.4meter4 (talk) 22:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Those are great clips. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Ssilvers Yes, I actually watched the Grayson and Keel movie for the first time the night before you posted to the musical theatre wikiproject page. It was odd timing, as if the fates knew I was about to start editing this page. lol Grayson's vibrato kind of annoys me, but somehow Keel's voice blends nicely with hers and I enjoy her voice when she sings with him, just not by herself. Interestingly, several of the books I am reading say the Show Boat (1951 film) is the weakest of the film adaptations. All of them go out of their way to praise the Show Boat (1929 film) as the best. Here are few interesting clips of Hattie McDaniel with Robson and Helen Morgan from the Show Boat (1936 film) Ah Still Suits Me" and Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man. I would be interested in catching these older films which both got better reception in the books.4meter4 (talk) 20:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Just for fun, if you have never seen the movie, here is the great Kathryn Grayson singing "Make Believe" and "You Are Love" with Howard Keel. Her vocal style (and that of Magnolia in the musical) is not much influenced by black music as Ferber intended, but they don't make 'em like this anymore. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Ssilvers Agreed, let me finish writing the adapting the novel section. Once that is written, I think we'll have a better overall view to help make trimming decisions. You have a better critical eye for cuts than I do. It's one your strengths as an editor, so I'll leave it to you to decide what we should keep and what should be thrown out. Best.4meter4 (talk) 20:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
@Ssilvers I finished taking care of the copyright issues in the background section. You can go ahead and start making cuts. Is this enough content on the adaptation? So much has been written on all the various changes and cuts during tryouts, I could add much more. Should I get into where it played during the tryout performances and all the alterations, or is this sort of general background enough?4meter4 (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- We could mention a couple of the really major cuts and changes. Depending on how many tryouts there were -- if there were only a couple, let's name them, or if there were a lot, we can give a general idea of the trajectory -- we should give the basic timeline, however. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- According to Dietz, there were four tryout runs. I'll try and come up with a brief overview tomorrow.4meter4 (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Good I did a little more trimming. I still think the first part is too long, but I am not inspired right now as to what is still cuttable. I'll ponder and come back to it later. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- According to Dietz, there were four tryout runs. I'll try and come up with a brief overview tomorrow.4meter4 (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)