Talk:Siġġiewi F.C.

Requested move 20 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus on this move (closed by non-admin page mover). B dash (talk) 13:57, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

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Siggiewi F.C. → Siġġiewi F.C. – The official club name is "Siġġiewi F.C." from its hometown. Tied to make a move myself but apparently the new title is blacklisted. —Chrisportelli (talk) 19:07, 20 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 10:17, 29 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 02:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. The official name counts for little (as do primary sources in case others just go to the club website or its press releases). What's the common name in reliable secondary sources, in English? Andrewa (talk) 21:14, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support helps readers with less familiarity with Malta to know that this is pronounced Sidjdjiewi not Sigkgkiwi. General English books on Malta (travel, history) now distinguish the hard and soft g so no great advantage in following sports html or ASCII webpages for the club names. Have all the football clubs in Category:Football clubs in Malta been fixed and this is the last one? On a brief look this looks like the only one at ASCII fonts. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support per In ictu oculi and for standardisation. Daß Wölf 03:30, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I closed this as no move but was asked on my talk page to reopen. My close reasoning was: No policy basis for the move has been cited by the nom or Supporters. Like Andrewa notes, we favor COMMONNAMEs over OFFICIALNAMEs. Through the lens of policy, there is no consensus here. I realize I'm going against the numbers, so I want to be clear.WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. These are !votes. We're not counting. We're evaluating the arguments. "the official name is ..." and "helps readers with less familiarity" is not policy basis. —В²C ☎ 08:36, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support for consistency with primary article. ╠╣uw [talk] 21:51, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose – The cited sources and external link do not use those diacritic marks. What sources do? Have to agree with B2C on this one; the nomination was lame, and the support is lame. Dicklyon (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dicklyon. Doesnt seem like English sources use the diacritics, and the argument about pronunciation is spurious because the vast majority of English speakers would not know how to pronounce a dotted G in Maltese terms. There might also be a case for moving the town to a nondiacritic form too, but either way it doesn't affect this, the two do not have to be consistent.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

English speakers who are interested in Malta articles might know or not, but might be less opposed to Maltese names than those who are not. This has happened before, we get a little island of ASCII fonts simply because a debate on [insert country] place or person names might be foreign to English speakers. No, English speakers who are interested in [insert country] articles are not going to be fazed by correct and complete fonts/spellings. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:08, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't see how just because the handful of English-language sources covering this particular sports club didn't bother learning how to enter diacritics, it would be somehow more correct or professional if we didn't either. If anything, the current title is misleading to someone with a passing familiarity with Maltese alphabet who's arriving from e.g. Category:Football clubs in Malta. That person will see other titles with diacritics and probably draw the erroneous conclusion that the correct Maltese language spelling of Siġġiewi F.C. is also without diacritics. Daß Wölf 01:13, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

That "handful of English-language sources" includes the club's own Facebook page. I asked above "What sources do [use the diacritics]?" Has anyone provided an answer? Convince me. Dicklyon (talk) 03:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't require an answer - that's the point. All en.wp Malta articles have Maltese fonts. That is the defacto MOS for en.wp. Are we going to turn this club into another one of the 2 or 3 anti-diacritics exceptions? This should have been quietly consistently edited with consistent MOS like any other Malta article. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:06, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support: Some sources do use "Siġġiewi" when referring to the football club, eg. [1]. When the spelling "Siggiewi" is used it's probably as a result of not bothering to use diacritics, eg. this website which uses that spelling for both the football club and the town. This is also the case with the town itself, for example the Facebook page of the Siġġiewi Local Council uses both versions - even writing "Is-Siggiewi" which would be incorrect in Maltese. One must remember that in Malta, English-language keyboards are much more popular than Maltese-language keyboards, and therefore diacritics are often (unfortunately) omitted when typing in Maltese. In my opinion, using "Siggiewi" (for either the football club or the town) is merely an antiquated attempt at anglicizing the name of the town, just like colonial-era spellings which are nowadays no longer in use (eg. "Siggieui"). --Xwejnusgozo (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:TITLECON, specifically, WP:CONSUB. bd2412 T 02:22, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. The organization itself doesn't use the marks. This is a proper name, a "we know what our own name is" matter. I'm not sure why they choose to drop the diacritics. I do note the source found that do use them, and I'm more sensitive than most to the fact that we use diacritics even when sport governing bodies drop them out of lazy jingoism. But that doesn't seem to be the case here; it's the club itself not using them. If they do in fact use them in their plain-print materials, and the lack of them is just a logo stylization matter, I would change my mind. But the text on their FB page is also lacking diacritics. This suggests that it's intentional, unless the FB page isn't really operated by them. We normally cite WP:OFFICIALNAME to avoid imposing over-stylization to names in Wikipedia to mimic marketing materials. Here people are citing it to add stylization that isn't present in those materials and that's not an interpretation we've ever entertained before, to my knowledge. (Well, other than "no, we will not mimic your all-lower-case logo" I suppose. Depends on whether you want to treat "adidas" being rendered in plain English as "Adidas" to be adding appropriate capitalization style or refusing inappropriate lower-casing style). In the end I think this is comparable to us not forcing a haček accent on the name of Stana Katic despite it being expected in the surname for most notable people who bear it. This also comes up a lot with American Hispanics dropping the acute accents from their names. If the subject disavows it we don't force it on them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:20, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Support - per nom and precedent e.g. Neftçi PFC Bakı not Neftci PFC Baki, AS Saint-Étienne not AS Saint-Etienne, Dunărea Călărași not Dunarea Calarasi etc. Abcmaxx (talk) 09:41, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per B2C, Dicklyon and others. Calidum 02:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 20 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

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Siggiewi F.C. → Siġġiewi F.C. – I would like to relist this page to be moved to the correct name. Although the previous discussion in 2018 was closed as no consensus was reached, I think it's time to reconsider again. The official club name should include the Maltese diacritics as without them its pronunciation is completely different. The club's hometown is also spelled and pronounced as Siġġiewi and both the club's Facebook and Instagram pages include the correct name. Other Maltese clubs contain such diacritics (including Gżira United, Ħamrun Spartans, Żebbuġ Rangers) without requiring lengthy discussions. —Chrisportelli (talk) 19:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 18:33, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support to match parent article name, Siġġiewi. GiantSnowman 18:36, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.