Talk:Siege of Algeciras (1342–1344)

Bad ISBN

Because it is causing a Checkwiki error #72: "ISBN-10 with wrong checksum", I removed the ISBN from the entry:

Jiménez-Camino Álvarez, Rafael; Tomassetti Guerra, José María (2005). ""Allende el río…" sobre la ubicación de las villas de Algeciras en la Edad Media". Boletín de arqueología yazirí (in Spanish) (1). ISBN 89-84227-61-6, pp.435–457.

I have tried unsuccessfully to locate the correct ISBN on the Internet. The best lead is here. Moreover, it's a "Boletín", so an ISSN might be more appropriate.

The Count of Lous

For what it is worth, this episode is not correctly presented.

Here is the relevant section of the Cronica de Alfonso Onceno:

Et á pocos dias que esta pelea acaesci, los Moros de la ciubdat salieron por la puerta del fonsario, que es en la villa vieja, et eran fasta trecientos de caballo , et mili omes de pie : et llegaron en amanesciendo á la hueste por la parte dó posaba el Maestre de Santiago, et el Concejo de Sevilla, et Don Joan Alfonso de Guzman, et D. Pero Ponce: et el Conde de Lous, que es en Alemana , posaba en aquella parte, et eran con este Conde seis caballeros de su tierra. Et como quier que los del real se apercebiesen luego para pelear con los Moros ; pero aquel Conde et los suyos salieron contra los Moros, ante que la otra gente del real saliesen. Et los Moros desque vieron que los Christianos de la hueste salían á ellos, fueron tornandose contra la ciubdat. Et el Conde et los suyos como salieron primero, metiéronse entre los Moros, et non quisieron esperar los otros Christianos que salían á la pelea: et los Moros tornaron á los del Conde ; et maguer que ellos peleaban muy recio, pero los Moros, que eran muchos, dieronles muy graud priesa, et mataron aquel Conde; et los otros sus caballeros eran en priesa de muerte, si non que les acorrieron los Christianos. Et como quier que la pelea era en el fonsario cerca la ciubdat, donde tiraban á los Christianos muchas saetadas o de arcos et de ballestas ; pero pelearon con los Moros tan reciamiente, que los fecieron entrar en la ciubdat, et sacaron en salvo los caballeros de aquel Conde : et los Moros metieron el Conde muerto á la ciubdat, et pusiéronle fuego por lo quemar.'

A few observations:

- There is no reference to the siege lines or mention of a decision

- The Puerta de Fonsario is not the site of the Christian camp but the gate from which the Marinid force leaves the city

- The "men of the Count of Lous" (location unclear) is misleading. Totalling six knights, accompanied by the count himself, the size of the party is key to the story.

- They do not "die under a cloud of arrows." The Count is killed in the unequal melée. His men are rescued- despite the :hail of arrows from the city walls.

An account in English, loosely translated, might read-

There followed a period of skirmishing and reconnaissance between the two armies. One day as dawn broke, a force of three hundred cavalry and a thousand foot sallied out from the city towards the lines occupied by the Master of Santiago, Juan Alonso Pérez de Guzmán, Pero Ponce de León, and the Seville contingent. As the Christians prepared to meet this attack, a visiting German nobleman, the Count of ‘Lous’, with six fellow countrymen rode ahead without waiting for the others. Seeing the Moors fall back, the foreigners charged in pursuit and, falling for the Moorish stratagem, the handful of knights were soon fighting for their lives as the retreating defenders counter attacked. The Count was killed and his companions were only saved by the arrival of their Spanish allies who drove the Moors back into the city despite a hail of arrows from the ramparts. The Moors took the Count's body back with them into the city where it was burned. (167 words over the present 89)

The point of the episode in the cronica seems to be a) to demonstrate the mixed blessing of foreign knights joining the army, ignorant of Moorish tactics (Although 7 men attacking 1300 was hardly sensible in any currency) and b) more crucially, the importance of all elements in the army deferring to the king and his commanders (as Alfonso tells the survivors of the German party*)- a regular theme of the cronica.

In the article, it would be worthwhile considering what the purpose might be of including this episode, bearing in mind that that it is not entirely clear who this 'Conde de Lous' was, and tailoring the details accordingly.

A more succinct version might be:

There followed a period of skirmishing between the two armies. One day as dawn broke a force of three hundred cavalry and a thousand foot sallied out from Algeciras towards a section of the siege lines. While the Christians prepared to meet this attack, a visiting German count accompanied by six fellow countrymen rode ahead. Seeing the Moors fall back, the foreigners charged in pursuit and, falling for the Moorish stratagem, the handful of knights were almost overwhelmend as the retreating defenders counter attacked. The count was killed and his companions were only saved by the arrival of their Spanish allies who drove the Moors back into the city, under a hail of arrows from the ramparts. (117 words)

{* The King's comments to the survivors: "The king felt the death of this conde deeply, and he sent for the other knights who had been with the conde and requested that their should not go out to fight on their own, since they had no experience of fighting the Moors, that they might make serious errors, and they should take heed of those who had command of the host, and they agreed to do so."}

JF42 (talk) 08:34, 27 April 2021 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 08:39, 27 April 2021 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 19:37, 30 April 2021 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 06:06, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

'archaeological park of the sea walls'

"bolaños, stone balls used during the 1342 siege, now in the archaeological park of the sea walls"

This caption is mistranslated from the Spanish caption in Wikimedia: "Bolaños pertenecientes al Sitio de Algeciras de 1342 localizados en el parque arqueológico de las murallas meriníes de la ciudad"

"Las murallas meriníes de la ciudad" would best be translated as "the city's Marinid walls"

'Pargue Arqueologico' (Archaeological Park) is a grand description, even more so in literal translation, for a small but nevertheless interesting site.

The whole caption might be better rendered as "bolaños, stone projectiles used during the 1342 siege, from a preserved section of the city's Marinid walls. JF42 (talk) 10:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 19:13, 7 June 2021 (UTC)