Talk:Siege of Paris (845)

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Livre de Paris

I've reverted the part about the ransom being 3426 kg, because:

• You can't use Wikipedia as a reference
• The given page says the unit was only used starting around 1350, so can't have been in use at the time of the Sack
• bad grammar (that could be fixed)

The 7000 pounds may or may not have been the same Livre de Paris. The source for that is Sawyer, and it just says "7000 pounds" without saying what kind of pounds. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Once again, persistence trumps reason here on Wikipedia. Oh well. Kendall-K1 (talk) 05:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

After a quick search, I found two sources which give the Danegeld payment as "7,000 pounds (3,175 kg)" [1] [2], but I don't know whether they have simply converted to kg by considering the payment as modern pounds, which would probably be incorrect(?). Thhist (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

That's almost certainly wrong, as it's an exact conversion from modern US pounds (7000 * .453592 = 3175.144). Apparently French pounds weren't standardized until the 1300s so it may not be possible to convert to modern units. Still, Wikipedia values verifiability over truth, even when the source is clearly wrong. I guess if I had my way we would say something like "about 3000 Kg", but that requires drawing a conclusion that's not given in any of the sources. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

True. I don't think verifiability matters though, when as you have found, a claim can be proved to be erroneous in some way, in this case by hard mathematics. In my opinion it's probably best to just leave it as it is without any conversion, at least until a more reliable scholarly source can be found. Thhist (talk) 22:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

At Pound (mass)#French livre, a previous livre is cited for the relevant time period, using the same source that has been added by the user here ([3]). This would however convert the 7,000 pounds to 2569 kg according to my calculations, and not 3426. Another reliable source gives the same information for the 800s livre here: [4]. Thhist (talk) 06:55, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

So the best we can do is say it's probably somewhere between 2500 and 3500 Kg, and even that requires making some assumptions. I think you're probably right about just leaving it the way it is. By the way, Avi8tor continues to revert. I see he's a new editor, and may be unaware of this discussion, so I'll leave an invite on his talk page. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Calling it pounds is wrong because at the time of the siege of Paris it was "livre", which is why pounds have the abbreviation lb for libre, (latin for scale). Lets face it, measurement was a mess with no common standards until the metric system standardized things. Calling it pounds gives any reader the idea that this is the same pound as the present US pound which it obviously is not. With 94% of the planets inhabitants living in metric countries with no feeling for pounds, I think it's appropriate to give some idea of what this means in modern units, i.e. kilograms. When I saw this my immediate thought was what was the mass of the ransom, obviously not 7000 present day pounds! ~~Avi8tor~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.191.83.106 (talk) 03:00, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree leaving it at "7000 pounds" is not good for the reasons you state. I'm just having trouble deciding what else to say. The sources we have are obviously wrong about it being 3175 kg, and we can't be sure whether it's 2569, 3426, or something else. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:35, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

If we use the source that I cited above, "Revolution in Measurement: Western European Weights and Measures Since the Age of Science" (it gives the same values as the website cited by Avi8tor) I think we actually do. The livre used from c. 1350 to 1800 of 489.5g (7000 * .4895 = 3426.5) is the one that gives 3426 kg, and must then be wrong. The livre used from c. 800 to c. 1350 of 367.1g (7000 * .3671 = 2569.7) gives 2569 kg (actually 2570), which should be correct if the 7,000 number is from a near-contemporary source. Thhist (talk) 14:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I guess I could go along with that. I'm a bit uncomfortable because there's some Original Research there, and uncertainty. For example, the 7000 could actually be modern US pounds, having been converted from some other unit. But I think it's better to get some kind of magnitude in the article than to just leave it at "7000 pounds." And I'd rather do the right thing than to blindly stick to the letter of the Wikipedia rules. Maybe also change it to "7000 livres" so people don't think it's US pounds? And/or link to Units of measurement in France? Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I think I just found the original source which gives the number, in this collection/translation of primary sources: [5] (alt: [6]). The original source seems to be the Annales Bertiniani (per the previous page and the "(a)"), a 9th century annal covering the years 830-82, which says under the year 845 "7,000 livres". I can only understand that this should be converted to 2570 kg (as per the conversion charts). Thhist (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, excellent work! Let's go with 2570, with the Annals as a source, and a link to Units of measurement in France, ok? Thanks for clearing this up. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent work! I have to agree the 2570 figure looks more accurate and the inclusion of Livres shows what unit they were using. Avi8tor (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I've now corrected the conversion in the article accordingly. Thanks for the insights on the issue—and pointing it out in the first place. I'd probably just ignore it if not, but in the end it's pretty satisfying to have found a conclusive answer instead of just leaving it an open question. (Also, it probably helps for the GA nom!) Thhist (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

More French Livres

It is linked to French livre initially in this article. It seems misleading, as the linked article is about the currency rather than the unit of mass. I am tough not comfortable with linking it to the article about pounds, as the article doesn't cover the french unit from the time of the siege (845, or the first half of the ninth century). Grrahnbahr (talk) 19:03, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The currency and the unit of mass were the same thing at the time. The currency was defined as the value of one pound of silver. So I don't think this is a problem. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Having looked at it again, you're right that it's misleading, because it was 7000 livres of silver and gold, not just silver. I'm not quite sure what to do about this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:23, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I think de-linking is probably the best thing given we don't have an article on that particular unit of mass. Thanks for fixing this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Some day we may find an article we could link to. Grrahnbahr (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2014 (UTC)