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Talk:Siege of Silves (1191)

Latest comment: 1 month ago by RobertJohnson35 in topic why this page should be deleted?
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why this page should be deleted?

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Latest comment: 1 month ago35 comments12 people in discussion

@M.bitton @srnec Zayani55 (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

It is explained in the AFD, although all I'm actually looking for is a blank-and-redirect. There is not enough information for a standalone article (yet, possibly ever). Srnec (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
and why dont remove also siege of tomar? Zayani55 (talk) 11:07, 30 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
For your page say that it is like the case of Muslim conquest of Spain, if everything is said on another page why then there is the battle of Guadelate, it is exactly the same case. The Almohads will make an expedition / war against the kingdom of Portuguese and in this expedition / war there are battles and sieges is quite normal I do not see why the page should be deleted knowing that it provides more detail on its sieges and battles. Zayani55 (talk) 11:23, 30 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
It has to do with how much can be said about the siege itself. We do not need a two- or three-sentence stub. Two or three sentences is what the main article will have anyway. Not everything about the battle of Guadalete is contained in the main article. See WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. —Srnec (talk) 17:19, 30 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Why, Abdul Rahman, did you delete my edit even though I gave the sources? 109.112.163.54 (talk) 19:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
1) Primary sources which you should try to avoid, its against Wikipedia policy. Secondary reliable sources are better to be shown.
2) There are secondary sources which says that Evora was not captured.
Sources:
  • Paul Hyland (1996) Backwards Out of the Big World: A Voyage Into Portugal , p. 171 Évora held out against the Almohad invasion from Morocco in 1191.[1]
  • Carlos Fiolhais, ‏José Eduardo Franco, ‏José Pedro Paiva (2021), The Global History of Portugal, From Pre-History to the Modern World. Évora , which suffered two sieges , resisting , isolated south of the Tagus ( 1191 ).[2]
  • David J. Evans (1992), Portugal: Cadogan Guides, p. 32. 1191 was driven back north of the Tagus , except for a foothold in Évora
عبدالرحمن4132 (talk) 19:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@عبدالرحمن4132 All the sources I cited are modern sources written biased towards personal opinions, meaning they are worthless 109.112.163.54 (talk) 21:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
its not that they're worthless but wikipedia prefer secondary sources
Rawd al Qirtas is rather a primary عبدالرحمن4132 (talk) 21:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@عبدالرحمن4132Can I rely on sources from the 19th century and is it a secondary or primary source? 109.112.164.106 (talk) 09:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
what's the source? عبدالرحمن4132 (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
All 19th and 20th century sources mention that the Almohads controlled Évora,[1][2][3] These are not the only sources I have. 185.49.213.27 (talk) 12:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
In the first source I cant even open it, could you quote what it says?
In the second source the author is just saying what Ibn Abi Zar wrote, therefore it cannot count. Ibn Abi Zar counts as a primary source.
"[...] Almohad campaign of 1191, and Lisbon and Évora still marked the limit of southern expansion" "[...] the only one that could be held was Évora" [3]
"Recent Portuguese gains in the Alentejo and in the Algarve, except for Évora were thus erased." [4]
"[...] possibilidade à invasão arábica de 1191 , até pela própria resistência de Évora aos assaltos sarracenos , que a não puderam conquistar" [5] Javext (talk) 12:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
More sources:
-"The Portuguese took Evora in the Alentejo permanently from the Moslems in 1166 [1165*]. It never again fell into Moslem hands, even in the great Almohad drive of 1191"[6]
-"He also took back the territories the Christians had occupied south of the Tagus River except for Evora." [7] Javext (talk) 15:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Javext
1) ALEJANDRO, GARCÍA SANJUAN (2017-04-24). EVOLUCIÓN HISTÓRICA Y POBLAMIENTO DEL TERRITORIO ONUBENSE DURANTE LA EPOCA ANDALUSI (Siglos VIII-XIII) (In Spanish). Servicio de Publicaciones de la Universidad de Huelva.[4] This source examined the credibility of Ibn Abi Zara and his consensus of opinion.
2) Geschichtsforschung, Universität Wien Institut für Österreichische (1911). Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung: Ergänzungsband (in German). Böhlau.[5] It was written in 1911 and is a secondary source, Muhannad and neutral because it is a German source.
3) Gebhardt, Victor (1875). Historía general de España y de sus Indias des de los tiempos más remotos hasta nuestros días[6] Neutral Spanish source, this is also a secondary source so you have no excuse Admiral 554 (talk) 07:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Once again on the first source it doesnt exam the "credibility of Ibn Abi Zara" It was just stating what he wrote, which we cannot use per wikipedia policy since its a primary source.
In the end all the sources I provided more sources and more reliable/preferred per wikipedia policy. They are all modern, either from this or the last century.
[8][9][10][11][12][13][14]
Also it isn't good to keep changing the page whilst there is a debate on going on the talk page, when I first sent my message here you clearly ignored it, you continued editing other stuff on wikipedia, but after i changed it as soon as you saw it you came back. Javext (talk) 12:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@عبدالرحمن4132Waiting for your response 👍🏻 185.49.213.27 (talk) 12:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@عبدالرحمن4132 Waiting for your reply 185.49.213.27 (talk) 16:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@عبدالرحمن4132 Waiting for your reply 109.112.163.54 (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Javext Give me your sources😁 Admiral 554 (talk) 15:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Admiral 554 With pleasure!
-"Évora held out against the Almohad invasion from Morocco in 1191." [15]
-"Évora , which suffered two sieges , resisting , isolated south of the Tagus ( 1191 )." [16]
-"[...] Almohad campaign of 1191, and Lisbon and Évora still marked the limit of southern expansion" "[...] the only one that could be held was Évora" [17]
-"Recent Portuguese gains in the Alentejo and in the Algarve, except for Évora were thus erased." [18]
-"[...] possibilidade à invasão arábica de 1191 , até pela própria resistência de Évora aos assaltos sarracenos , que a não puderam conquistar" [19]
-"The Portuguese took Evora in the Alentejo permanently from the Moslems in 1166 [1165*]. It never again fell into Moslem hands, even in the great Almohad drive of 1191" [20]
-"He also took back the territories the Christians had occupied south of the Tagus River except for Evora." [21] Javext (talk) 15:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Javext Your sources are very modern and these sources rely on old Portuguese books, so dream in peace 176.244.85.118 (talk) 11:37, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Javext 1) Synchronistische Geschichte der Kirche und der Welt im Mittelalter, Volume 9[7] The German source is neutral and is a secondary source.
2) Histoire d'Espagne depuis les premiers temps jusqu'a nos jours: 6, Volumi 1-9[8] Another neutral French source, which is a secondary source, states that the Almohads captured Évora. You have nothing to say now, I gave you five sources and I have more 176.244.85.118 (talk) 12:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
So funny. First off, the more modern the sources are, the better per wikipedia policy. Modern historiography is better and preferred. And no they dont "rely on old Portuguese books" and you got no proof of that.
Your french source literally said that it was according to "El Édris". It isn't a neutral source, on the contrary, its just stating what that guy wrote. In other words, just stating a primary source.
Your german source, i can't even read it, let alone write in google translate. Provide the translation.
So far my sources are better, all from the 21 and 20 century which is the best per wikipedia policy. You can't find a single one from these centuries stating that Évora was ever captured, unless they are just citations of another primary source, which you have used in 2 sources already.
[22][23][24][25][26][27][28] here some of my sources, all modern and from modern historians, look perfect in the eyes of wikipedia. Javext (talk) 12:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Javext Your sources are all very modern and do not draw on them as much as sources from the 19th and 20th centuries. I heard that you demanded that the page on the conquest of Évora 1191 be deleted. Your personal biases are clear.[9][10][11][12][13][14] Admiral 554 (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
See WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:OR. That's all I have to say. Javext (talk) 18:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Javext Talking to you is futile, your biases are crystal clear. 91.80.92.166 (talk) 17:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you wish to continue the discussion then please provide good arguments, but if you just keep using personal attacks then this debate is indeed futile. Javext (talk) 18:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@R Prazers The Almohads took over Évora and I have many sources that prove that.[15][16][17][18][19][20][21] 31.158.39.236 (talk) 08:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@R Prazeres 31.158.39.236 (talk) 08:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@R Prazeres Give us your sources now. 31.158.39.236 (talk) 08:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
This has already been discussed. RobertJohnson35 (talk) 09:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@RobertJohnson35 But we did not reach the truth, which is the control of the Almohads over the city. 31.158.39.236 (talk) 09:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@RobertJohnson35 In addition, I have superior sources, all of which meet Wikipedia standards and are secondary sources. 31.158.39.236 (talk) 09:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Again, this has already been discussed twice (here and in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Almohad conquest of Evora (1191)) and all but one of the sources you used have been discussed on both talk pages.
Also, there are many sources that say Évora was not captured.[22][23][24][25][26][27][28] RobertJohnson35 (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ Gebhardt, Victor (1875). Historía general de España y de sus Indias des de los tiempos más remotos hasta nuestros días (in Spanish). Tasso.
  2. ^ ALEJANDRO, GARCÍA SANJUAN (2017-04-24). EVOLUCIÓN HISTÓRICA Y POBLAMIENTO DEL TERRITORIO ONUBENSE DURANTE LA ÉPOCA ANDALUSÍ: (Siglos VIII - XIII) (in Spanish). Servicio de Publicaciones de la Universidad de Huelva. ISBN 978-84-17066-06-2.
  3. ^ Geschichtsforschung, Universität Wien Institut für Österreichische (1911). Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung: Ergänzungsband (in German). Böhlau.
  4. ^ ALEJANDRO, GARCÍA SANJUAN (2017-04-24). EVOLUCIÓN HISTÓRICA Y POBLAMIENTO DEL TERRITORIO ONUBENSE DURANTE LA ÉPOCA ANDALUSÍ: (Siglos VIII - XIII) (in Spanish). Servicio de Publicaciones de la Universidad de Huelva. ISBN 978-84-17066-06-2.
  5. ^ Geschichtsforschung, Universität Wien Institut für Österreichische (1911). Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung: Ergänzungsband (in German). Böhlau.
  6. ^ Gebhardt, Victor (1875). Historía general de España y de sus Indias des de los tiempos más remotos hasta nuestros días (in Spanish). Tasso.
  7. ^ Damberger, Josef Ferdinand (1856). Synchronistische Geschichte der Kirche und der Welt im Mittelalter (in German). Pustet.
  8. ^ Histoire d'Espagne depuis les premiers temps jusqu'a nos jours: 6 (in French). Furne et Cie. 1841.
  9. ^ Damberger, Josef Ferdinand (1856). Synchronistische Geschichte der Kirche und der Welt im Mittelalter (in German). Pustet.
  10. ^ Geschichtsforschung, Universität Wien Institut für Österreichische (1911). Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung: Ergänzungsband (in German). Böhlau.
  11. ^ Gebhardt, Victor (1875). Historía general de España y de sus Indias des de los tiempos más remotos hasta nuestros días (in Spanish). Tasso.
  12. ^ ALEJANDRO, GARCÍA SANJUAN (2017-04-24). EVOLUCIÓN HISTÓRICA Y POBLAMIENTO DEL TERRITORIO ONUBENSE DURANTE LA ÉPOCA ANDALUSÍ: (Siglos VIII - XIII) (in Spanish). Servicio de Publicaciones de la Universidad de Huelva. ISBN 978-84-17066-06-2.
  13. ^ Histoire d'Espagne depuis les premiers temps jusqu'a nos jours: 6 (in French). Furne et Cie. 1841.
  14. ^ Collectif (2022-10-19). Identité religieuse et minorités: De l’Antiquité au XVIIIe siècle (in French). Presses universitaires de Rennes. ISBN 978-2-7535-8894-3.
  15. ^ Damberger, Josef Ferdinand (1856). Synchronistische Geschichte der Kirche und der Welt im Mittelalter (in German). Pustet.
  16. ^ Geschichtsforschung, Universität Wien Institut für Österreichische (1911). Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung: Ergänzungsband (in German). Böhlau.
  17. ^ Gebhardt, Victor (1875). Historía general de España y de sus Indias des de los tiempos más remotos hasta nuestros días (in Spanish). Tasso.
  18. ^ ALEJANDRO, GARCÍA SANJUAN (2017-04-24). EVOLUCIÓN HISTÓRICA Y POBLAMIENTO DEL TERRITORIO ONUBENSE DURANTE LA ÉPOCA ANDALUSÍ: (Siglos VIII - XIII) (in Spanish). Servicio de Publicaciones de la Universidad de Huelva. ISBN 978-84-17066-06-2.
  19. ^ Histoire d'Espagne depuis les premiers temps jusqu'a nos jours: 6 (in French). Furne et Cie. 1841.
  20. ^ Collectif (2022-10-19). Identité religieuse et minorités: De l’Antiquité au XVIIIe siècle (in French). Presses universitaires de Rennes. ISBN 978-2-7535-8894-3.
  21. ^ Schoefer, Henri (1858). Histoire de Portugal depuis sa séparation de la Castille jusquà nos jours (in French). Adolphe Delahays.
  22. ^ Barroca, Mário Jorge (2006). "Portugal". In Alan V. Murray (ed.). The Crusades: An Encyclopedia. pp. 979–984.
  23. ^ A history of portugal. CUP Archive. 1947-01-19. p. 103.
  24. ^ Grande enciclopédia portuguesa e brasileira: ilustrada com cêrca de 15.000 gravuras e 400 estampas a côres (in Portuguese). Editorial Enciclopédia. 1959.
  25. ^ Stanislawski, Dan (2014-11-11). The Individuality of Portugal: A Study in Historical-Political Geography. University of Texas Press. p. 175. ISBN 978-1-4773-0509-6.
  26. ^ Kaufmann, J. E.; Kaufmann, H. W. (2019-07-30). Castle to Fortress: Medieval to Post-Modern Fortifications in the Lands of the Former Roman Empire. Pen and Sword. ISBN 978-1-5267-3688-8.
  27. ^ Fiolhais, Carlos; Franco, José Eduardo; Paiva, José Pedro (2021-12-06). The Global History of Portugal: From Pre-History to the Modern World. Liverpool University Press. ISBN 978-1-80207-133-7.
  28. ^ Hyland, Paul (1996). Backwards Out of the Big World: A Voyage Into Portugal. HarperCollins. p. 171. ISBN 978-0-00-255556-2.
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