Talk:Siege of Temeşvar (1716)

The historical truth

Clikity [1] I'm not sure if "growth declined" is the right expression. Not the growth rate of the Ottoman Empire has fallen, but the empire ceased to grow and at that time even lost some territories, in the east. The period is known as "stagnation."

"the Habsburg army, under the command of Augustus II the Strong, besieged Timișoara. After the victory, the Habsburg army began to prepare the fortress. In the beginning of August, various engineering works and cannons had been positioned around the fortress. This proved to have little effect in changing the result of the battle, because in late August, the Habsburgs had been defeated by the Ottoman army led by Sultan Mustafa II."

Here's a misunderstanding. At the end of the 17th century the siege of a fortress was an artillery duel. The besiegers (here, in 1696, the Habsburgs) had to dig trenches in order to approach the walls and had to dig some pits in which they placed siege cannons. These are the mentioned "engineering works" (French: travaux de génie militaire), not works to strengthen the fortress after victory. In 1696 there was no victory of the Habsburgs in Timișoara. At the intervention of the Ottoman army, sent to defend the fortress, the Habsburgs had to abandon the siege and withdraw. That's what the sources say. Please restore the historical truth in the article. --Turbojet Clikity (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2018 (UTC)(talk) 19:08, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for me misunderstanding the article, will revert the edits.Clikity (talk) 21:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Edit: If the engineering works were just cannons/artillery, why not just use artillery? Also, it has been a long time since I studied any history regarding the Ottoman Empire. I guess I have a lot to study about in my free time. Regards, Clikity (talk) 23:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I have copy edited the order of battle. It was very good, with only a few minor errors. I think after you divide the "History" section and make a few changes, you can submit a peer review. After a few fixes, try to get promoted to B-class and then Good Article or A-class. I guess I'll give you a start. Also if I made a mistake, please let me know.Clikity (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I'm glad you're interested in the history of the Ottoman Empire. I am not a historian, so far I only care about the history of the city where I live. I want to write about it because in 2021 it will be one of the European Capital of Culture and probably people will look for information about it. This article is one of the articles that support the Timișoara Fortress article. The articles I wrote are based in particular on the recent works of historian Ioan Haţegan, who wrote a Banat chronology between 934-1716, based on his researches in the Hungarian, Austrian and Ottoman archives.

My English is poor. I did not understand what you meant by "If the engineering works were just cannons/artillery, why not just use artillery?" At the time the siege of a fortress was done with siege cannons (mortars) that had to be placed. Sources say that for this, the besiegers had to do important military engineering works, and I just quoted what the sources mentioned in the article say. In 1696 the siege procedure was the same as in 1716. The siege of 1716 is shown in this picture, which is very correct. The picture shows the zigzag and parallel trenches, which had to be and were dug. It should be noted that at the 1716 siege the losses among the Habsburg engineer officers, different from artillery officers, were considerably above expectations because they were in the front line. I do not think it's good to minimize their work, especially as sources point it out. I would like to collaborate, so that the text can accurately present the situation and the atmosphere of the time.

My experience is mostly on Wikipedia in Romanian. I do not know the procedures for nominating and promoting articles on Wikipedia in English, but I will do whatever it takes to improve the article. --Turbojet (talk) 09:24, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I meant if most of the "engineering works" were cannons or artillery, what is the need for the vague word? But now I see your point, I will see if I can reword the sentence in order to make it shorter yet more inclusive. Thank you, Clikity (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, I don't understand the phrase "" It also might confuse the average reader on Wikipedia, so I will need to reword this. Thanks, Clikity (talk) 15:06, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

About "depending on the crusaders of the parties in conflict", here is how is described the situation of Lipova (fortress that sustained Timișoara) in Hategan's chronology:
The data is where the facts were written, not the date of the facts.
p. 22: before 22 July 1541 Lipova belongs to John Zápolya, vassal of the Ottomans.
p. 16: Sept 1541, Lipova belongs to Ottomans (Suleyman the Magnificent).
p. 21: August 1551, Lipova belongs to Petru Petrovici, man of the Ottomans.
p. 21: 19 August 1551, Lipova is occupied by Habsburgs.
p. 25: 6–8 October 1551, Lipova is besieged by Ottomans.
p. 26: 13 October 1551, Lipova belongs to Ottomans.
p. 29: 1–20 november 1551, Lipova is besieged and won by Habsburgs, led by gen. Castaldo.
p. 48: 28 July 1552, the Habsburgs, commanded by Aldana, fled Lipova out of fear because of the approach of the Turks.
p. 49: 30 July 1552, the Ottomans occupy Lipova without a fight.
p. 102: Mars 1574, Lipova is occupied by Transylvanian prince's troops.
p. 108 8 August 1595, Lipova is occupied by György Borbély from Lugoj (Banat).
p. 108: 18 August 1595, Lipova is won by the Transylvanians.
p. 112: May 1596, Lipova is besieged by Ottomans without success.
p. 143: May 1604, Lipova is besieged by Ottomans without success.
p. 145: 6 July 1605, the Ottomans won Lipova.
p. 145: Mars 1606, the Transylvanians won Lipova.
p. 152: 22 February 1613, Bathory's troops (Transylvanians) fled from Lipova, hearing that the Ottomans will send troops to won it. The Ottomans occupy Lipova.
p. 153: 1 July 1614, the Ottomans retrocede Lipova to the Transylvanians following a treaty.
p. 156: April 1616, Lipova is handed over to the Ottomans following the decision of the Transylvanian Parliament.
p. 262: December 1687, Lipova is besieged and won by Habsburgs, led by gen. Antonio Caraffa.
p. 265: October 1690, Lipova is occupied by Ottomans.
p. 265: Spring of 1691, Lipova belongs to Habsburgs.
p. 266: September 1691, Lipova belongs to Ottomans and is besieged by Habsburgs without success.
p. 274: 7–8 September 1695, Lipova belongs to Habsburgs and is besieged and won by Ottomans led by Sultan Mustafa II.
p. 310: October 1716, Timișoara is won by Habsburgs, the Ottomans withdraw from the Banat, including from Lipova.

Maybe the term "crusade" is exaggerated, but it has to be said that Lipova passed from hand to hand almost at every action of someone. --Turbojet (talk) 21:12, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Well me and another editor have copy edited this article. The prose is good enough to withstand a GA nomination, maybe FA. I don't know about the article itself, but why not give it a try at going to peer review. I might do this myself once I complete my current tasks. Clikity (talk) 13:49, 23 September 2018 (UTC)