Talk:Silent Hill/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Renewal

As a fellow fan of the Silent Hill franchise and a member of the Wikipedia community, I feel as though the SH articles are unequal in both attention and quality when compared to well established entries such as Metal Gear and Resident Evil. Although it is inevitable that the series may not have a vast fandom community as those listed previously, this does not justify the series article, for instance, seeming to lack even the smallest of details frequently occuring in others, such as the Japanese character spelling [since the franchise is of that origin] and logo to name a few for the preamble. If it is okay, I would like to list several suggestions of improvement for the article(s), but first I'd like to see if everyone would would agree whether several pages need heavy revisions. I acknowledge the fact that such edits can not happen overnight, but I was hoping others were interested in contributing to changing article content formats and such. This way we can discuss overcoming several obstacles that may be encountered as well [regarding self-interpretations of symbolism, etc.]. Godzilla 10:12, 05 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you're just the fellow we need to join the Silent Hill Taskforce. Marasmusine 14:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

My main focus at the moment is to heavily edit the various amounts of trivia and original research. Stuff like the 'Themes and motifs of Silent Hill' section I removed might seem obvious to players of the game, but unless it's been commented on by an independent reliable source, we can't have it here. Marasmusine 15:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

These two reviews for the first game might be able to help you with that. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 16:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Silent Hill (サイレントヒル, Sairento Hiru), I retrieved this from earlier versions from back in 2006 and I was wondering if it can be verified for reliablility before being posted. Godzilla 14:06, 05 May 2007 (UTC)

Themes section

The themes and motifs section is almost all original research. It badly needs trimmed and sourced, if possible. If neither is done in the next couple of days I'm going to take it down. Levid37 11:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay instead of taking it down completely I've heavily trimmed it. It still needs sourced and worked on but now a huge chunk of the original research has been taken out. Levid37 18:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm new to this wikipedia editing thing but I found on the website http://www.konami.jp/products/appli_sh_escape/basic.html that the Japanese release date for Silent Hill:The Escape was on 12/19/2007 as the website specifies that date quite often in that page so I assume its the Japanese release date ,check it out and verify if I'm right, I don't know japanese but i assume that date is the release date for that game in that country. edit that 4 me thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PaPiRiCoSuAvE (talk • contribs) 22:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Comics split

Thanks to the good work of the various editors the comics section is looking solid and is in a form where it could be split off into its own entry. It couldn't really be expanded much more without unbalancing the entry and even as it stands can form the solid core of its own entry. I've suggested Silent Hill (comic book) as a good final location. (Emperor 02:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC))

Agree--Releeshan 03:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• The comics naming conventions would suggest Silent Hill (comics), but I'm not sure there's much to split. It all looks to be plot summary to me. Hiding Talk 22:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • In some ways that is the point of the split. It is rather stalled as expanding it would tend to unbalance the entry so they have been kept in a bonsai version. There is more to add, like links as well as references and the like and it can't be done as it stands. (Emperor 03:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC))

Agree--Sounds like a good idea to me. Ms408 16:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone else got any ideas/input? (Emperor 15:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

OK seems to get a general thumbs up. When I find the time I'll sort this out. (Emperor 04:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC))

All done to Silent Hill (comics). It still needs expanding but it had a good start so already looks solid. (Emperor 23:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

Fanmade film

There's a fan made film called Silent Hill: No Escape that might benefit of a mention http://noescape.rateofinjury.com/main.htm

I don't know in which section to put it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Synista (talk • contribs) 05:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

If you find more stuff like this, it'd make a good "in popular culture" section. 66.181.151.66 (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Fungo of Silent Hill media is currently making a Silent Hill documentary. http://shm.silenthillfever.com/--Sherwood-Nightshade (talk) 00:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if it would fit the notability guideline. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 03:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Silent Hill: Double Under Dusk

hey guys, I have just added a small note about the new interative manga comic for Konami mobile network which is going to released this summer in Japan. Not much to say really but it's good to let people know that the series is still expanding.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by The real deal (talk • contribs) 11:07, 6 July 2007.

What's a "Konami's cellphone network" though?--Svetovid 12:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Setting : location of Silent Hill

« On the official Konami web site, the "map" section is imprinted with a fleur-de-lis, a traditional French symbol. »
Not quite since 1789.
Modern French symbols are either the tricolor flag or the Marianne ( the face of a woman wearing a Bonnet Phrigien. )
Silent Hill certainly takes place way after 1789 :)
On the other hand, the Fleur-de-Lys is a symbol for Quebec.
That would feel more consistent with the diverse locations of Silent Hill putting it somewhere in America.
--Mathomstore 02:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Trivia Section

I know it's probably been gone for some time, but I thought the trivia section was good. I liked the article with the section better than without. Does anybody feel the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Northwindbrat (talk • contribs) 07:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the main problem with the trivia section is that it was a trivia section. Marasmusine 09:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

If you think there were any valuable information, please add them to relevant sections.--Svetovid 17:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

More Mason-ry

Please stop changing Heather's name in the SH3 description. Leave it as Heather to avoid confusion\editing wars. --Thaddius (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I have posted a note on the talk page of the editor who is adamant about it being Morris. Hopefully it will bring a civil discussion here and not continue as an editing war. --Thaddius (talk) 17:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe there's actually a CNN article that references her as "Heather Morris". --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 21:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

See? It's "Morris". Why would the name stated on the back of the box be a lie? The people even said she was named after he voice actor-Heather Morris. And the above user even states another source. I'm not the "bad guy" here. The ones putting it incorrectly as "Mason"-which also pretty much spoils the whole game right there-are the ones being villianous.24.3.180.166 (talk) 00:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Nobody's being 'villianous'--it's the last name of a fictional character from a single game on a page about a whole series of games. It is an incredibly trivial point. Rather than include such a divisive and trivial line for people to constantly fight over, the page is improved by omitting her last name altogether. It doesn't matter what her name is, especially not to somebody reading a summary of the series on Wikipedia. --waka (talk) 07:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

It DOES matter. It's something included on every other video game page, and every other character on this page as well. Her last name is Mason. There is no debate, just a small handful of people who refuse to accept the truth.24.3.180.166 (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Waka is right, it's a completely irrelevant point. If someone can provide a source proving either name (that's not the back of the case because the NA version is the only version that has that proposed 'mistake') it'll be fine (it would be best if it was from the director or someone on the team), but for now we don't have one, there's no need to put it in. As for calling her 'Mason' being a spoiler, I suggest you read the spoiler guidelines of wikipedia. It states that someone who comes to wikipedia should expect the subject of an article to be covered extensively, making spoilers par for the course and not grounds for 'leaving it out'. I'm taking it out until a source can be provided, something with Mr. 24.3.180.166 shouldn't have a problem with. Provide a source and we the editors of wikipedia will have no problem with it being there. Until then, it's gone. Wikipedia will not crumble to dust in the time you take finding a source. --Thaddius (talk) 13:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

You guys need to grow up. It's "Morris", whether or not you want to accept it. There is no reason to believe what was printed on the back of the box is a lie, especially since the makers DID confirm it, saying they named her "Heather Morris" after her voice actor.24.3.180.166 (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

HERE is the article. Now stop calling people slanderous names, and consider getting an account so I can actually refer to you by a name. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 17:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[1] This is official, but it gives no last name. What exactly is wrong with omitting her last name? --Sherwood-Nightshade (talk) 18:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Because it's ridiculous to ommit it, when her last name is blatantly stated. What next? We gonna delete the last names of all video game characters? Look at the sections for all the other SH games on this page. You don't see anyone throwing a fit about that. We know for a fact her last name isn't "Mason", because she was in hiding. The fact that her last name is "Morris" is stated on the box and by the creators who say they named her after her voice actor. You can't get more proof than that.>_>;24.3.180.166 (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

It's ridiculous to keep fighting this. You don't understand the rules of verifiability. Read that article and come back to us. The creators say they named her first name after her, but make no mention of a last name. You saying that the last name is included in that comment is not proof. A definitive article is. Sherwood-Nightshade is doing research, you aren't. Find an article where the creators say her last name is Morris, or even Mason, and once you add the source (which you haven't been doing at all) we can let it all be. Make sense? Please try to follow the rules of the site, that's all I'm asking of you. --Thaddius (talk) 18:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand the rules, and it doesn't get more valid than the game box itself. And every article about her naming I've read never specifically states it was her first name alone that she shares with her voice actor, but that she was "named after" her voice actor. Why would there be an article stating it? There aren't articles stating that Harry's last name is Mason or James last name is "Sunderland". Why? Because it's obvious. You're just trying to write it off as some kind of crazy typo because you can't accept that her last name is not "Mason". Why don't you show us some proof that Morris isn't her last name? Because I've already pointed out the OFFICIAL box.24.3.180.166 (talk) 19:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

And here is further proof, straight from the mouth of the company head. He outright says her name is "Heather Morris":

http://www.gamershell.com/news_7362.html

See?24.3.180.166 (talk) 21:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Company head? Kagemasa Kozuki isn't mentioned in that article at all. So now we have two contradicting sources: one from the non-head of Konami saying she's named Morris, and another official guide (including the cast list) that has no last name given. Also, because I guess you didn't see these either, both the Japanese and UK covers call her simply 'Heather'. I've also come across a few articles that mention 'Mason' as her last name too [2], including one where Akira Yamaoka himself (you know, the producer of the series) acknowledges Mason [3].This took me 2 minutes to find so you seem to do some very selective research if you missed all this. Because we have all these we are now even more confused than ever. There's clearly no consensus on the name, even on the internet, the only common denominator is her first name. Since you claim to be familiar with wikipedia rules, I'm sure you know of wikipedia's stance on neutrality? Since we have a number of sources that contradict each other, it's best to go for the neutral stance, which would be to simply leave her name has just Heather to avoid all the confusion. Right? --Thaddius (talk) 01:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You need to stop. I provided solid proof. The guy is the head of Konami, and he said her name is "Morris". Mason could never be her last name, and articles that just list her as "Heather" mean nothing, since there are articles that just list Claudia's first name or Douglas'. I provided solid proof. You haven't.24.3.180.166 (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand how this encyclopedia works. The talk page is not tied to the article. You have to add the source to the page for it to 'count'. I keep removing the name because it's still not sourced. Not hard to understand. You can't just go around adding things willy nilly with no sources. I have also provided sources, one is from Akira Yamoaka, the guy behind the games. You also need to read your article again. Yours is a quote from Wilson Cheng, the project manager for Konami USA, not the head of the company in Japan that made the game, and certainly not anything as close to the project as the producer (I suggest you read up on Akira's role in the games). The sources I found are just as reliable as yours and you can't simply pretend they don't exist or are 'wrong' just because you feel like it. I'm not asking much from you. I know you don't understand the rules too well because you're new, so let's just sort this all out first, THEN edit the article appropriately. Got it? --Thaddius (talk) 02:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I've put in a request for semi-protection, we'll see how that goes. --Thaddius (talk) 02:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

So, just because I don't know how to add a reference, you think you have the right to keep vandalizing the article? That's ridiculous!24.3.180.166 (talk) 03:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No, what's ridiculous is that you've obviously touched on a point of contention for SH fans, and rather wait for consensus to be reached you continue to edit the page in an unproductive way that flies in the face of such a consensus. You have a complete disregard for the rules of wikipedia (WP: Civil, WP:EDITWAR, WP: Neutral, WP: Consensus, WP: Sources, WP: 3RR, ad infentum), you're blatantly ignoring other valid sources because you don't want to admit they exist and you're accusing others of being villains, children and vandals when you're no better. You're edits to wikipedia and this page are not productive and considered vandalism. Waka, Work Permit and I are undoing your disruptive 'contribution' until we can reach consensus. Wikipedia is not your play thing. The page has been locked for now so you can't continue this nonsense. READ the sources I've provided, reread your own, because you seem to misunderstand that the guy who was quoted was merely someone who supervised, and did not participate in, the localization project. I found other sources that contradict your own so the neutral thing to do, as I've suggested and maintained for 2 years, is to leave it as 'Heather'. This will not lead to edit wars (although apparently it does because you can't accept the rules), this should not anger any other fans, and the last name isn't really that relevant at all in the grand scheme of things. Read the rule essays I've linked above. Good day to you. --Thaddius (talk) 10:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The page has been locked so that YOU cannot continue your vandalism. You haven't provided any valid sources, whereas I have. Just because the guy is part of the American team and not the Japanese one, that doesn't make him wrong. Same is true of the box-it's not wrong just because it's the Japanese one. You are the other who kept editting the article instead of discussing, not to mention vandalizing my talk page. We now have three official sources who say her name is Heather Morris, not to mention the countless articles for the game where the sites have been told the same.24.3.180.166 (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand that I'm the one who requested the page lock. It has nothing to do with anyone favouring yours or my side on the matter, but is simply to stop the edit war between you and I which it has for now. It is not up to individual editors like yourself to deem sources they don't like 'valid'. All of the sources above are valid and are contradictory. One of mine is from imdb.com, which I cannot believe you're calling 'unvalid'. It's one of the best maintained and accurate databases online. The other one I have is from 'gamespot' which is a well known gamers website too, so I still don't understand why it's 'invalid'. Just take the time to read the sources I gave you, because you clearly haven't. That probably won't change your mind because I gave you both sides of the argument from the beginning and you're still dragging this on as if your side is the only one. This is really disruptive what you're doing, you know that? --Thaddius (talk) 13:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Thaddius, no offense, but you've been nothing but rude to her, and even went as far as to attack her on her talk page, just for contributing to the article. The name being used before, "Heather Mason", was incorrect and essentially spoiled the whole series in a section where spoilers were not supposed to be. "Heather Morris" is supported by various articles in both Japanese and English, so I don't see why you're causing such a fuss.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Fragments of Jade, I don't appreciate you saying I 'attacked' her on her user talk page. I was very polite in that comment and I suggest you reread it under the assumption that I'm explaining something to, what I think, is a new user (WP:AGF). I've admitted that there are articles that say she's 'Morris' but there are just as many that say 'Mason', right? I've also detailed wikipedia's policy on spoilers. I simply don't understand why you and random user are ignoring the other sources. --Thaddius (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've read it many times, and you were flat-out rude to her. It doesn't matter how many articles call her "Mason", as the game proves that name is no longer being used by Harry, as he and Heather are in hiding. She doesn't even know that was his name-or that her original name was "Cheryl Mason"-until getting that notebook. The articles using that are typically ones written by fans or the like, who just assume that to be her last name, since she is the daughter of the man who was the protagonist of the original Silent Hill-Harry Mason. As for spoilers, I know Wiki allows them, but there are certain places where they belong and certain places where they do not. Look at any pages for a video games series, and you will not find spoilers for each game listed, just a basic plot overview. The actual spoilers are in the article for the game itself or related character pages.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really know how I was rude here. I went over the sides of the arguments on the matter with her... and that's rude? I do believe you're looking for things that aren't there. 'Flat out rude' indeed. --Thaddius (talk) 01:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

That's just one thing, though that alone is sarcastic and rude.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

That's the only thing we're discussing, and it's not sarcastic or rude (those things are near impossible to interpret from plain text). I refute your accusation, remind you of WP:AGF, and restate that you're looking for things that aren't there. Give this up please, this has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And remain civil. --Thaddius (talk) 02:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Heather's name

Alright folks, for those of you who don't understand the rules here, post your suggestion in bold with a brief reason. We're looking for consensus here.

• Heather - Last name not relevant, multiple contradictory sources. Leave it as just the first name. --Thaddius (talk) 10:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Heather (alternately named Heather Morris)" followed by the appropriate sources, but primarily referred to as "Heather" throughout all affected articles. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 14:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Heather Morris" because that is her name. It is confirmed by the series creators who say she was named after her voice actor, it's on the back of the game box, it's used in various articles for the game both before and after it's release, and it was confirmed by the American head of Konami. Don't know why we're bothering to do this-it's just going to turn into a popularity contest.24.3.180.166 (talk) 18:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• Heather - Her last name has no relevance to the game in question nor the article. It's not worth sourcing one way or the other because it's a trivial detail. I nominate this argument for inclusion in Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. --waka (talk) 07:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Is three parties arguing enough? --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 01:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Haha, I don't know! I thought it only required the argument to surpass a particular degree of asinine-ness. --waka (talk) 02:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I honestly don't know either, but it's quite clear that a number of editors agree to just have her first name so that's as much consensus as we're going to get. This article doesn't need to go into any more detail other than her first name, which random user at least admits is correct. We'll get the lock knocked down to semi-protected after the lock expires. That will keep certain people from disrupting the article any further. --Thaddius (talk) 13:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Heather Morris" I hate it when people refuse to accept stuff just because it's on/in the US release. If the box says it's her name, then it is. If it wasn't, then the people who created her or the people responsible for the US release would have said something. So far, the original creators have only said she was named after her voice actor, who is "Heather Morris". And then the head of Konami US said in that article that her name was "Heather Morris". There's also various other articles on the net about the game's release that give her that name. Are you saying, they're all wrong?Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I think what we're saying is that right or wrong, whatever the character's name may be, it's clearly contentious and has caused a lot of edits to the page (by more than just the people--you can check the history if you like). Given that it's contentious, and that it is extremely trivial either way, the page is improved by removing the last name all together and avoiding stupid edit wars. --waka (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
    • It may be trivial to some, but it's not to others. It's already certain her last name isn't "Mason", and it sure as heck isn't nothing at all. "Morris" is supported in articles, the game box, and even by the US head of Konami. No way are all those sources wrong. And if it's not important, then why bother getting rid of "Morris" at all?Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I don't think anyone has read the article our random user fiend posted, because that's not the president of Konami US (I don't think anyone read the ones I posted either). Even if it was the president, the US branch didn't make or write the game. And while there are articles that say that her name is Morris, the point here is that there are just as many calling her Mason. For the sake of avoiding stupid edit wars like the one that random user started with that other guy before I stepped in to remove the last name completely (which regrettably caused another edit war), it's best to omit the last name. On Wikipedia we take the neutral point of view. This is policy and the last name doesn't matter at all. It only matters to fans that care enough to edit the page constantly back and forth. Everyone else would call it fancruft at this point. --Thaddius (talk) 22:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
        • You know, when you start insulting a person who didn't even do anything wrong, you only make yourself look bad. I see no reason to remove her last name. It's obvious to anyone who's played the game that "Mason" is incorrect, but if "Morris" was incorrect, you think someone would have said something. I doubt it could just be that big of a mix-up.Fragments of Jade (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
          • I haven't insulted anyone. The random user kept accusing me of vandalism and calling me names. I'm the one who requested the page lock. I'm the one who told the random user to stop changing it back from the beginning. He started this edit war with someone else before me. Please just leave it neutral until we resolve this. Doesn't that make any sense to you? It's cited, yes, but there are plenty of other sources that I can add personally if you want me to to show that it's not clear what her name is. This 'anyone who has played the game' stuff is rubbish anyhow. It's made quite clear that she's Harry's daughter in the game. She is never, in any way shape or form, referred to as 'Morris' in the game itself. --Thaddius (talk) 18:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
            • You accused her of it first, and she never started an edit war, merely fixed the article. As for not insulting, you haven't stopped making nasty remarks since the beginning. And yes, Heather is Harry's daughter, but it's made more than clear that neither of their last names would have been "Mason", as they were in hiding.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
              • I don't understand why you hate people who make baseless accusations when your accusations are just as baseless. I called the edit war stupid, not the editor. Random user accused my edits as vandalism when I was merely removing un-sourced comments that were starting an edit war. You've clearly misjudged the situation. Please remain civil and refrain from making accusations that bring this discussion nowhere. --Thaddius (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
                • My accusations are not baseless-you've been nothing but disrespectful towards her, as well as myself and anyone else who dares disagree with you. And I've done my research-you made the first step twice in the "edit war", and you were also the first to make accusations of vandalism.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
                  • Actually, someone changed it to say 'Mason' and random user changed it to 'Morris' much earlier than your research has gone it seems (this is the earliest phase of the slow going edit war I can find). Also, in the comments on this edit, the random user accuses Waka and I of vandalism. Random user also accused us of villainy and told me to 'grow up' long before I used the word 'vandalism'. I also admitted my hand in the edit war (I even reported myself for violating WP:3RR). Random user has been dismissive from the beginning. I attempted to take a rational approach (my comment on her talk page) but this went unheeded. I attempted to make the page neutral, this caused an edit war that I regret. I added a source showing the contradiction, it's removed and the page is locked. --Thaddius (talk) 23:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
                    • That just proves that she started nothing-someone else changed it first. She was just fixing it. And who are you to demand she do anything? Why don't you stop editting it?Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

There seem to be plenty of sources calling her both Morris and Mason. This can be explored further on the character's specific article, (is it possibly some artefect of game localisation?) but for the brief overview in this article just "Heather" will surfice.Marasmusine (talk) 09:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Heather Morris" because I agree that's her name. It shouldn't be omitted just because a few people refuse to listen to reason.76.120.173.40 (talk) 10:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, Wikipedia goes on verifiability, not personal opinion. And here we have multiple sources that contradict each other. What to do? --Thaddius (talk) 18:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Solution

Since our friends random user and Fragments of Jade (who, judging by their disposition, I suspect are one and the same) refuse to follow the rules of wikipedia, including WP: consensus (which we were attempting above) and WP: Neutral (which I've been attempting all along), I've modified the article to include two articles that have both last names. This should solve the problem. Thanks for you help guys. --Thaddius (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't solve the problem at all, since it just has what you want. And I've had it with your baseless accusations. People like you, who start making those kind of accusations as soon as more than one person disagree with them really get on my nerves.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

We now hove sources for both sides of the argument, what is the problem here? Is it your own personal disagreement with what the last name is? --Thaddius (talk) 23:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, you are editting the article so that it gives no last name, which is what YOU want. Those of us who accept that her last name is "Morris" once again get cheated. There's far too much evidence supporting "Morris" for it to be false.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There's far too much evidence for it being 'Mason' for it to be false as well. In my last edit before it was locked I added a source showing this problem and yet it was removed. I've acknowledged that there are plenty of sources supporting both sides of the argument, this is obviously a point of contention, isn't it? --Thaddius (talk) 23:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You're also forgetting that 'my way' is to leave her without a last name, where in this new solution, we're admitting credence to both sides of the story, which is not what I want at all, but seems to be common ground. --Thaddius (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

How many times do I have to say it? There is no proof at all that her last name is "Mas:on". A fan-written article or even a review by a company does not count, since those people are likely to just make assumptions based on the fact that she is the daughter of Harry Mason, even though it's made perfectly clear he is no longer using that name in Silent Hill 3. There are, however, articles related to companies involved with the game that list her name as "Heather Morris", as well as the creators' statement that she was named after her voice actor, who is "Heather Morris". Not to mention the fact that it is printed on the back of the game box. I'm sure someone would have said something by now if it were an error.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

How many times do I have to say it? I posted a link to an interview by a reputable source, gamespot, and they asked a direct question to Akira Yamoaka himself, the only consistent factor in each SH game and the executive producer since 2 I believe, who did not correct the interviewers. It's clear you're not reading these articles that contradict your personal views, and I'm afraid that that is not how things go here. There are valid sources on both sides. You pretending that they're not reputable doesn't make them so. --Thaddius (talk) 01:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Now you're getting rude and sarcastic with me? Don't you ever quit? Those are not valid sources. It's quite possible those men were either unaware of her name or just accepted it because she is Harry's daughter. Like Trucy from the Phoenix Wright series. Her name is Trucy Wright, but since she was born Trucy Enigmar, no one is going to raise a fuss if she's called that in an interview. Doesn't mean it should be used over Wright.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not being sarcastic or rude. Remember to assume good faith, I highly recommend you consider that article when reading all of my responses because you're plainly misinterpreting them. And I think you'll find that the happenings of Phoenix Wright have no bearing on Silent Hill. I stated this before about random user: it is not up to editors such as you or I to decide that sources are not valid. Both links meet Wikipedia's requirements for sources and one is no more or less valid than the other, no matter how much you rage against the machine. And you can't deny that there are those who feel her name is Mason, just as you strongly feel it's Morris. I'm attempting to promote neutrality. I can't understand why you're arguing against that and asking me to quit advocating the rules and guidelines of this website. --Thaddius (talk) 02:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not assuming good faith, because you're plainly being rude. And it's the same case as with Phoenix Wright-a perfect example. "Mason" is not her last name. It was at one point, five years prior to the start of the game, but it's made clear she took on a fake name. Harry, having kept his first name, would definately have not kept the last name of "Mason", since that would have made it far too easy for the cult to find them again.Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, no-one wants to see this kind of argument here. Can I suggest just leaving the article in whatever state it is at the moment, blow off some steam, collect some thoughts, and come back in a week or two? Marasmusine (talk) 08:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It's no use. The article has already been protected once for a week. Soon after the protection was lifted, they were right back, changing her name. It's bound to happen again this time too.Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, dear... I can't believe peope are still arguing about that... Her name is just known as "Heather." In-universe, she would probably (logically?) have a last name, but we don't know what it is, then. Yes, she was named after her voice actress. She was named "Heather." The "Morris" part is a mistake. It can't be found in any official Japanese documents, guides, whatever (even when all the other characters have their full names listed... that should tell you something right there, really). And sorry, but the fact Yamaoka didn't go out of his way to correct an interviewer about that doesn't mean squat... It's not like he has to be anal-retentive about details like that during an interview (and that's assuming he cares enough about all that to even know that her name is just "Heather"... Yamaoka doesn't exactly strike me as a formidable guardian of the Silent Hill temple). 88.161.129.43 (talk) 12:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I took a look at the official website, and she's just called "Heather" there, so that's what we should print here; anything more in-depth should be written about on that character's specific article. Marasmusine (talk) 12:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You are just assuming the "Morris" part was a mistake. Again, if that were the case, I'm sure someone would have said something. And for the record, Clauda's last name is not listed on the official websites either. That doesn't mean it's not "Wolf".Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

And you are just assuming "someone would have said something" if that were a mistake. Mistakes not getting corrected? I'm afraid that kind of things happen all the damn time, really...

You're saying Claudia's last name is not listed on the official website either. Indeed, I checked the Japanese official site, and it isn't. Then again, they don't list any last name at all. So that's hardly informative. This is more interesting. This guide lists the full names for all the characters. For example, Claudia is listed as "Claudia Wolf", this time around... but Heather is just "Heather" (and Vincent is just "Vincent" as well).

Seriously, I've read a lot of Japanese guides for these games, and I've never seen her name listed as "Heather Morris", ever. And some people confusing the name of the voice actress with the name of the character? Considering they're both "Heathers"? Not exactly inconceivable. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The creators said they named her after her voice actor. If the "Morris" part where an error, there's no reason why they wouldn't say so. And that book is hardly a reliable source and contains a fair amount of errors.Fragments of Jade (talk) 01:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they named her "Heather" after Heather Morris. If the "Morris" part were an error, there's no reason why the creators wouldn't say so? Well, gee, maybe the guys haven't read the back of the US box, you know? For them to correct a mistake, they'd have to know about it in the first place (and then, they'd also have to care enough to point it out). And the guide I was referring to is 1) fairly reliable, 2) saying the exact same thing as every other Japanese guide out there as far as Heather's name is concerned. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 02:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The name "Heather Morris" has appeared on far more than just the US game box, including articles and statements from official personal in the US. It's unthinkable they haven't heard about it. And that guide messes up some of the biggest things in the game, such as when Cheryl was adopted.Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if the name "Heather Morris" ended up on the US box, obviously, that means that at least one guy at Konami (or the US branch of Konami?) believed that was her name... And should I be surprised that the name ended up elsewhere, like in some US articles? It was on the back of the box.

Also, "unthinkable"? Well, that's what I'm thinking, so...

Finally, should we completely disregard that guide simply because it's not 100% perfect? If so, finding valid sources is going to get a bit tricky...

Anyway, her name has always been "Heather" (and only "Heather") in Japan, as far as I know. So you've found several examples of her name being listed as "Heather Morris" on US materials... Fine. I guess that's something that should be mentioned in the article. But you can't ignore the fact that it's inconsistent with Japanese materials and wouldn't be a surprising mistake considering the character and the voice actress already share a name... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 03:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not uncommon for stuff to be left out of Japaese guides, such as last names. Just like they're ommited from the sites. Until another last name is revealed, "Morris" is as canon as we've got.Fragments of Jade (talk) 05:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's possible some discrepancy other localization. I'll ask my market-stall owning friend to check the UK box/instructions and report back later. Marasmusine (talk) 08:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"Not uncommon"? Could you give us a couple of examples? Characters from Japanese video games who were always missing their last names even when the rest of the bunch had their full names listed in the same material (official site, guide, etc)? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I've just heard back from my friend, and he confirms for me that the UK box and instructions do not mention any kind of surname for Heather. If Fragments of Jade is correct about the US box, then this is a localization issue and should be mentioned on Heather's specific article and I reiterate my opinion that just her first name should be used on this overview article. Marasmusine (talk) 11:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not just some localization issue. The same name is repeated constantly, yet you're trying to tell me no one bothered to point out it was a mistake if it was? There is nothing proving her name is not "Heather Morris", but there is quite a bit out there proving that it is.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact the name "Morris" was only mentioned in the States doesn't seem... well, "strange" to you? And sorry, but the "how could a mistake be left uncorrected?" argument is pretty weak... These things happen. Heck, I believe we've all seen far worse. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The decision to include her last name on the box was unique to the US. It's hardly odd, since they've done it with the protagonists of all the Silent Hill games, and it's usually done in all cases where a characters' name is going to be on the box.Fragments of Jade (talk) 04:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

If the use of the surname wasn't universal to all localizations, then it shouldn't be presented as such on this general article but of course should be mentioned on Heathers article. I haven't played the game yet, but perhaps you can tell me; is her (pre-Cheryl Mason) surname mentioned anywhere in the game at all?. Looking at other Silent Hill forums, I get the impression that the only place "Heather Morris" appeared was on the back of the US case, and that's it. Marasmusine (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"The decision to include her last name on the box was unique to the US." No, it's quite a bit odder than that: she's apparently not given a last name at all, except in the States. Considering it's a Japanese game to begin with, and the great amount of Japanese material that could have mentioned that last name at some point, it is quite strange indeed. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:48, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not odd at all. If her last name is not stated in the game, that doesn't mean she doesn't have one. And if it's not specifically mentioned in the Japanese game, it would not be mentioned in the US game. That would be a translation error. But in the US, the last name of the main character is always included on the back of the box with the first name. That may not be the case with the Japanese releases, but it is with the US ones. I doubt they would just make up a name or there would just be an error that no one would bother to correct even now. They quite possibly asked what her last name was, just to be safe. There's no real reason to believe it's wrong.Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not odd at all.

Yes, the fact her supposed last name has apparently never been mentioned outside of the States is quite odd. Were Silent Hill 3 an American game, I could see that happen. But it's not.

If her last name is not stated in the game, that doesn't mean she doesn't have one.

It's not just that it's not mentioned in the game. It doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere. Except in the States. Sometimes.

in the US, the last name of the main character is always included on the back of the box with the first name.

You're not seriously trying to pretend that's some kind of "rule" or "tradition", are you? And even if it were (...), I fail to see the point you're trying to make, here...

I doubt they would just make up a name or there would just be an error that no one would bother to correct even now.

Well, I don't. Mistakes happen. All the time. Especially in Western releases of Japanese games. And more often than not, they're not corrected. Either because it's too late, or because "nobody" cares all that much.

There's no real reason to believe it's wrong.

The fact that name was apparently only mentioned in the States, and never in Japan, the game's country of origin where many guides listing the full names of the characters have been published, is a really good reason to question its validity. Plus, it doesn't take a genius to figure how they could call her "Morris" by mistake. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 13:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I've experimentally moved the use of "Morris" to a footnote along with the reference provided; the surname isn't universal but obviously needs mentioning. Marasmusine (talk) 13:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You guys are seriously beginning to tick me off. You're all "let's discuss it first", but the second the page is unprotected, you're right back to changing it to support your own opinion. There is a high possibility "Morris" is her last name, and maybe it was not included in any guides because it's an alias.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, "Heather" isn't her real name either, if you go there... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Stop trying to inject logic into this argument! Can't you see that this is about being right!? --waka (talk) 19:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"Heather" may also be an alias, but they had to call her something in the guides. And just saying "Cheryl Mason" would be a bit wierd, since that's only mentioned as her name once. And this has nothing to do with "being right", it has to do with fact.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I tried. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I know, man, I know. Kind of like arguing with a baby, huh? --waka (talk) 03:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You guys are the ones acting like babies, and your pathetic and uncalled for insults only prove it.Fragments of Jade (talk) 11:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't call you a baby, I said that talking about this with you is like talking to a baby. I mean it isn't constructive because you are not willing to even entertain the idea that there might be options other than your own. As I've said all along, my position is that this is an extremely trivial matter and that it's not even worth arguing over. Wikipedia relies on consensus, and pages are damaged when we have arguments like this where the parties (in this case, you) refuse to consider alternate proposals. I said much the same thing to you on your talk page, but you blanked it and did not respond. So you see how my perspective is that you're only here to "win," and in that respect, are not worth arguing with because you can't argue with a zealot (or a baby). Nothing personal. --waka (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Er, if I can get things back on track? As far as I can tell, Jade's argument is that the character always had the Morris surname since the game's development, but that it was then omitted for every localization except the North American release (where it coincidentally matches the name of the voice actress.) Perhaps you can provide some kind of source that shows that the surname was in use during game development? Marasmusine (talk) 11:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the argument seems to be that the name was omitted for the original Japanese version and every localization save for the US one... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 14:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the argument is "I am right and all of you guys are wrong no matter what you say." There are a number of sources in this thread and the one above that are all equally valid and conflict. --waka (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Stop being such a jerk. You're a hypocrite as well. I don't see YOU entertaining the possibility that YOU might be wrong. Instead, you do nothing but throw around insults and mock people. I'm beyond sick of people who go around bashing US releases of games and denying things stated in them with the excuse that they're not the Japanese release.Fragments of Jade (talk) 14:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, like it or not, the US release is only a localization, and the Japanese one is the original work. That's just how it is. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 14:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Waka and Jade, you are both falling foul of our WP:NPA policy, please take a moment to step back, re-read the policy and see how it relates to the comments that you've made. As for the content, does anyone other than Jade have a problem with my proposal of specifically mentioning "Morris" in a footnote, citing the US press release? (Since it doesn't look like anyone's going to show where it was used outside that territory.) Marasmusine (talk) 15:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, thanks for keeping a level head. I believe Jade is the only remaining advocate for "Morris" or any other last name at this point. Per our straw poll above, "Heather" with no last name, was the preferred option (though by an extremely slim margin thanks to low turnout). I guess what is most frustrating about this is that all of the arguments were made several weeks ago and have not been extrapolated upon--we're just bickering. I think that the current note is fine, but I also think it's unnecessary. I maintain that any name is fine, as long as the edit wars stop, as those are more detrimental to the page than some information that might be wrong depending on your territory. I also think that arguing about the name of a fictional character, not to mention a character who goes by a pseudonym, is really, extremely pointless. Put down Heather, or Heather Morris, or Heather Mason, or Cheryl Mason, or Cheryl Morris, or "the protagonist"--or whatever. The reader gets the same amount of value (almost zero) from any of those combinations. Whichever selection will stop revert wars is ok with me. --waka (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the footnote is fine. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 17:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with it. You can't just do that because you refuse to accept the possibility. As it is, nothing has been proven.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The way I see it, if we were "refusing to accept the possibility", there wouldn't even be a footnote. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that the current footnote on the page is fine. It makes the most sense with the information that it given. Heather's last name being "Morris" is never mentioned in game and even though it is mentioned on the back of the US release, that does not necessarily mean that the name is written in stone. I don't think that adding a last name to Heather will help the article or make it any more or any less accurate. It's a trivial piece of information that has little bearing, if any, on the game. If it was mentioned in game then I would be all for, but as it is only mentioned in a limited way I would say even a footnote seems excessive for unneeded information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saquarry (talk • contribs) 20:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You're only adding the footnote to get your own way of not having it there properly, and because you can't disprove what I'm saying.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Just what are you saying? That the main character has to be named "Heather Morris", because the US box says so, and surely that can't be a mistake as that would be "unthinkable"? But then, what do you make of... well, what the game, guides, etc have to say about that in the game's country of origin, or in other territories? They're all calling the main character simply "Heather", even when they list the full names of all the their characters. Are you arguing that they're mistaken? An error left uncorrected? "Unthinkable", right?

The fact is, we have conflicting data, and no official statement regarding that inconsistency. You have your reasons to believe that the US box is right, and I have my reasons to believe it's wrong (and naturally, I'm fairly convinced that my reasons are perfectly valid whereas yours suck, but that's not important right now). Still, unless somebody at Konami (and preferably somebody "in the know") actually adresses that oh-so-crucial issue (fat chance), neither of us can really tell for sure.

So what do we do?

Myself, I'd say both versions are noteworthy... but which one should be used prominently, and which one should end up as a footnote?

If all English language versions of the game (when I say "game", I'm including the box, the manual, the official sites, etc) called the main character "Heather Morris", I guess you could pull the "this is the English Wikipedia!" card and call her "Heather Morris", refer to the boxer as "Balrog", etc. But that's apparently not the case.

So which version trumps the other? The one in agreement with the original (Japanese) version, or the one that appears to be limited to the States? The one that would, at worst, omit a last name that's never used in the game anyway, or the one that would, at worst, add a last name that simply doesn't belong? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Being rude isn't going to solve things any quicker. My reasons are perfectly valid and backed up already by at least one staff member at Konami, who stated specifically that her name was "Heather Morris". And it is included on the back of the box, not to mention backed up by the fact that the creators say she's named after her voice actor, who is, Heather Morris. The fact that this last name is not used in the guides doesn't disprove my point-it would only do that if they gave another last name in it's place. And since you brought it up, yes, this is the english Wikipedia, and like it or not, "Heather Morris" is definately the name she's been given in the US. All articles on Wikipedia give priority to the US names, with little or no mention of the "original" ones. It may be called "Biohazard" in Japan, but it's called "Resident Evil" in the US, and that is the name used in all the articles for that series, with little mention of the original name. Looks like you've just strengthened my argument.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

backed up already by at least one staff member at Konami, who stated specifically that her name was "Heather Morris"

And yet, she was never called that (by Konami staff members, too) in Japan. Isn't that strange?

backed up by the fact that the creators say she's named after her voice actor, who is, Heather Morris

Vincent was named after Vincent Gallo. Is the character's full name "Vincent Gallo"?

The fact that this last name is not used in the guides doesn't disprove my point-it would only do that if they gave another last name in it's place.

By your (utterly flawed) logic, she simply couldn't be named just "Heather". Think. Please.

since you brought it up, yes, this is the english Wikipedia, and like it or not, "Heather Morris" is definately the name she's been given in the US.

Why do you think I said "English language versions" (<- plural)? Why do you think I didn't simply say "US version"?

Looks like you've just strengthened my argument.

Look (and think) harder. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

See, this is what I was talking about when I said that you are being unproductive. You are just repeating the things that you've already said on this page several times--there's nothing new to your argument. You are the only person who is arguing your particular position, so if you wish the page to change the way you want it to, you need to convince us that you are right. Take a look at that straw poll above; we were not convinced the first time you made this argument, and repeating it doesn't make it any more convincing. As the outlier, you need to do something else, that is, provide a new argument or new information, if you want to bring consensus around to your side. Or, you could agree to compromise. There won't be a solution until you do one of these two things: convince us with something more than what you've said so far, or compromise on a solution that both sides find acceptable. ---waka (talk) 06:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Here, I'll make it easy on you. Just answer these questions convincingly. Remember, I hold no stake either way in this argument, I just want it to stop.

- In Silent Hill 3, the protagonist is referred to as "Heather" and "Cheryl". We know from the story that Heather is a pseudonym and Cheryl is her real name. Which of these names should we use to describe the protagonist? Why?

- Some sources list this character's last name as "Morris", others list it as "Mason." These sources are well documented in this thread. "Heather" with no surname is most common. Why should one set of sources be preferred over another set? (Note that "the back of the box says 'Morris'" and "guy from Konami was quoted" have not proven sufficiently convincing thus far, so you need a better answer for this one).

- When a reader who knows nothing about Silent Hill 3 encounters this Wikipedia page, please explain how he will benefit from reading one name over the other. "He'll get wrong information" isn't sufficient here, because omitting the name entirely is an option. Please describe, as you see it, the reason that getting this part right is so important.

That's it! Very easy, right? If you can answer these questions convincingly enough to persuade us, we can add your reasoning to the page and thereby avoid future edit wars with future editors who might disagree with your position. --waka (talk) 06:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe Heather was ever given the last name "Mason." Except by fans, I mean. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

For the last time, YOU are the one being unproductive and name-calling. I've more than proven my case. I don't have to persuade you. There is one fact that no one can deny, and that is that she is definately "Heather Morris" in the english release. And it is the english releases that get priority here. In the end, it doesn't matter what she is called in the Japanese or European versions of the game.Fragments of Jade (talk) 07:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are being unproductive. You have "proven" (I think most of us already knew that) that she was called "Heather Morris" on the US box, but you haven't proven that this was correct (as opposed to just "Heather", according to... well, pretty much everything else). Apparently, she's not "Heather Morris" in the UK release of the game, and like it or not, that's an English language release. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The "guy from Konami" is from Konami of America's press release [4], as now related in the footnote. Jade, the burden of proof is on you to show where it was used outside that territory; not for other people to disprove it (per WP:V.) Current concencus appears to be in favour of the footnote. Marasmusine (talk) 09:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, your insults aren't doing anything to help your case. I'm stating facts. It's your own tough luck if you two can't accept it. Are you going to go around deleting every english-release name on every article out there, just because it wasn't or you don't believe it was used in the original Japanese release? I don't have to prove anything more than I already have. The box itself is all the proof needed. None of you are willing to accept that, or the word of someone in the company, or the statements about her name by the original creators. If the box says her name is "Heather Morris" in the US release, then you'll just have to accept that. If you want to just write it off as a mistake, then who's to say it's not the Japanese guides that are mistaken, Maybe they just left the last name out because they were copying the box. Silent Hill guides have been known for their errors, especially Lost Memories. Your proof could easily be where the mistake is.Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:32, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you going to go around deleting every english-release name on every article out there, just because it wasn't or you don't believe it was used in the original Japanese release?

You could at least do us the courtesy of actually reading our replies. The UK release of the game apparently calls her just "Heather."

If you want to just write it off as a mistake, then who's to say it's not the Japanese guides that are mistaken

Wasn't you main argument that even if the last name was only mentioned in some instances in the States, it had to be true because such a mistake would be "unthinkable"? Double standard much?

Silent Hill guides have been known for their errors, especially Lost Memories.

Sure... Whereas US boxes are known for their papal infallibility, right?

Your proof could easily be where the mistake is.

Right back at ya!

And again, without even trying to tell who's right and who's wrong (it's not like we can really know for sure), it simply makes more sense to use "Heather." I explained why above (01:12, 1 July 2008). Unless you're willing to stop going in cicrles for a minute here and actually address the points we've been raising, I suggest you take a break. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

No, why don't you try actually reading what I'm typing. I've provided more than enough proof to support the name "Heather Morris". All you've done is make sarcastic remarks and resort to name-calling. It's fact whether you want to accept it or not. You can't just write it off as a mistake just because you don't want to accept it. Bottom line is, her name is written as "Heather Morris" for the US release, so that is what should be included in the article. No matter how rude you are to me, how much proof you ignore, or how many names you call me, that's the solid truth that won't change.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Bottom line is, her name is written as "Heather Morris" for the US release, so that is what should be included in the article. -> It is. Footnote 8: "In the North American localization only, she is known as Heather Morris, in both press releases [1] and the game packaging.". I don't see how it can be any more factual. Marasmusine (talk) 11:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I resorted to name-calling? When? And you keep ignoring the points I'm making. Please stop victimizing yourself and going in circles. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

This whole time, along with being generally rude and sarcastic. It shouldn't have to be a footnote. If anything, it's the Japanese info that should be in a footnote, like in all other articles with this issue.Fragments of Jade (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Except that the Morris surname is not used in the UK version either (or any other version it seems); the US version is the exception. The information you want is now in the article, but now you want to argue about where it is? Marasmusine (talk) 11:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I resorted to name-calling the whole time, really? Please do show me. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 12:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not something that should be reduced to a mere footnote. And whether or not it's in the UK version is irrelevant. The information from the US release is always used in Wiki articles. The different info from other releases is lucky if it even gets a mention.Fragments of Jade (talk) 11:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

No: WP:BIAS. None of our video game featured articles show (or should show) a US bias. I'm completely open to a full paragraph on the ins-and-outs of this character's name on Heather's article. It's not appropriate to do so on this series overview article. Marasmusine (talk) 11:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Look, Jade, I know you are new here, so let me tell you a little bit about how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is based on consensus. You can read about the official policy: WP:CON. In order for a page to stabilize and have high-quality information, consensus mandates that all editors agree. There are two ways you can build consensus: compromise and persuasion. You've been so-far absolutely unwilling to compromise; the footnote that Maramusine added is an attempt to find common ground between your position and everybody else's. So if you don't want to compromise, you must convince us. Simply stating that your position is "fact" isn't convincing. You can't even answer the simple questions that I posed to you about your position, which doesn't make your argument very strong. If you really want the page to change in your favor, and you're unwilling to accept a compromise solution (like the one we have right now), the burden is on you to convince the rest of us. You've not been convincing thus far, so please try harder. --waka (talk) 16:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not new here. And I've given more than enough necessary proof-I don't have to convince you of anything. The pages do have a bias-anyone can see that. The US names and titles are always used, with the ones from other regions just mentioned briefly in the article, and that's only some of the time.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:CON. "I'm right and you are wrong" is not consensus. We can't move forward unless you change your approach. --waka (talk) 18:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

You're the one who needs to read. I've already provided more than enough proof. It doesn't have to meet YOUR standards-you're not the god of Wikipedia.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Neither are you, I'm afraid. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is why I'm backing up everything I'm saying with evidence. You guys don't want to accept that though, and are choosing to just ignore the evidence and keep demanding it.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick reminder: I provided evidence as well. But yeah, never mind that. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Is Heather's last name relevant?

This has gone on long enough. I suggest everyone involve take a break. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 13:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is the last name of Silent Hill 3's protagonist, Heather, relevant to the page? If so, which name should be used? Is the fact that her name is the source of dispute relevant to the page? Of course it's relevant. If it wasn't, none of the video game/movie/tv show articles would feature the last names of characters, everyone would get mixed up with every other character who shared their first name, and the result would be chaos. And of course, the name should that should be used is the most commonly known one-the one used for the US release, Heather Morris. That's how it is in all the other articles.76.120.173.40 (talk) 07:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Can you point to a featured article which principally uses the name from a U.S. release that isn't used anywhere else in the world (including UK, Europe and Japan.)? Marasmusine (talk) 09:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(series) Other territories doesn't matter. As you can see in this series overview, the original Japanese name of the series is what is only briefly mentioned, while the entire article uses the name the series goes by in the US release. That's what's important. Heather's last name may or may not be in the UK or whatever version or it may be. Since it's not specifically mentioned in the game itself, they might have just chosen not to include it on the box. I don't live there, so I don't know how they handle their games. In the US, however, as I believe another poster pointed out before, it is almost unheard of for only the first name of main character to be included on the back of the box.76.120.173.40 (talk) 09:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC) The name "Resident Evil" is used for all the English releases of the game(s), so there's no debate here: the English Wikipedia articles should use the title "Resident Evil." On the other hand, Heather has only been referred to as "Heather Morris" in the States. In the UK version, she's just known as "Heather", just like in the game's country of origin (and the rest of the world?). So we have two conflicting versions, and in my opinion, it would make sense to prioritize the one that's in agreement with the original (Japanese) version, and would, at worst, simply omit a last name that's never mentioned in-game anyway (not even in the US version). A somewhat similar example would be the game Siren. It's known as "Siren" in the States, and as "Forbidden Siren" in the UK. Two conflicting titles for two English language versions. "Siren" was chosen, and I'd like to believe that wasn't because of some US bias, but rather because "Siren" also happens to be the original (Japanese) title. In the US, however, as I believe another poster pointed out before, it is almost unheard of for only the first name of main character to be included on the back of the box. You Americans and your crazy traditions! 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Now you're insulting Americans? Man, how low will you stoop? I already addressed what you said-it's very possible they just chose to leave it out. They might do that with a lot of their games.76.120.173.40 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Now you're insulting Americans? Oh, dear... It was obviously (??) just a joke. Chill. I simply find the notion of US boxes always mentioning the last names of the characters (according to you, that is) to be quite absurd/funny. How you could actually perceive that as an "insult to Americans" is beyond me, to be frank. Man, how low will you stoop? Wha-? Did I kill a man or something? Anyway, I must have missed your previous warnings about my criminal behavior, sorry. I already addressed what you said-it's very possible they just chose to leave it out. And I already adressed that idea earlier... You might want to read the discussion. Who knows, maybe you'll find you had me confused with Charles Manson. That would explain a lot! Anyway, in Japan, Heather was never listed with a last name, even when the other characters had their full names. Same thing for Vincent, actually. What that tells me is that Heather and Vincent's last names weren't simply "omitted", but simply didn't exist in the first place. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 14:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC) An email to Konami has also confirmed that, if nothing else, "Heather Morris" is NOT an error and is officially her name in the english releases, though they are currently not sure if it is her name in the Japanese version. They're certain about the english releases, though.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Er... Great? 'Care to show us the source of that newly discovered info? But I like the idea. "We're not sure how she was called by the guys who actually created her, but we sure know how we called her when we wrote that blurb on the US box! So no mistake there!" Gee, thanks, guys! That reminds me of the "Venus in Cancer" debacle... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 14:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC) For the sake of clarity, are you (Fragments of Jade), 76.120.173.40 and 24.3.180.166 one and the same? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 17:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC) 88, you just won't quit will you. Your rudeness and sarcasm know no bounds. You're acting like a common internet troll. Just because people disagree with you, that does not make them all the same person. You should try actually reading what people type. I clearly stated that Konami answered in an "email". And maybe Vincent doesn't have a last name. He was called "Father Vincent". Generally, priests are referred to by their last names instead of their first. He could easily have been an orphan from Wish House for all you know. If you intend to continue being rude, I suggest you step out of the discussion, because you're only making things worse.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Why do you take all of these comments personally? I don't think anybody here has the intention of being rude or sarcastic. We all just want to find a solution that will suit us all through some kind of compromise. You (Fragments of Jade) keep playing the victim card and that is really not the issue at hand here. At first, reading this, I was open to your argument, it even made some sense although I was not entirely convinced. I personally think a footnote in the series article (which this is) is a plenty sufficient compromise. No more is really needed. If you want to add the Morris last name then why don't you do that on her character page or even in the Silent Hill 3 article? I do not see the relevance that her last name HAS to be on this page. I also think it would be fair if we all could see this "email" that you talk about. Also the UK release does not have the "Morris" last name, and even though I am from the US, I think that by just going by what the US box says is wrong. Both kinds of sources should be taken into account especially since the last name is not mentioned in the game. More importantly, why is this so important in the first place. Since it's not even mentioned in game or in the Japanese release of the game, it cannot be that vital to the series. I really can't stand it when people play the victim card in an open debate. If you want to debate, then give us the information and persuade us, but don't say that everybody is being rude and victimizing you because that just isn't true at all. We're all just looking for the best compromise available so that we can make the article the best it can be. Saquarry (talk) 19:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC) OK, thank you for confirming that you're not the same person. See, the thing is, I got this silly idea when I noticed that you were all editing the same pages (mostly Silent Hill and Wild Arms-related articles, lately), for the same reasons (Heather's last name or the capitalization of "Arms"), using the same kind of arguments (such as "the creators of the game sent me an e-mail that confirmed I was right"), blanking your personal discussion pages shortly after responding to criticism, replying without indentation in the talk pages, misspelling the same words in the same manner ("omit" -> "ommit", "editing"/"edited" -> "editting"/"editted"), blaming me for insults I have no recollection of, etc. Also, 76.120.173.40 and you appeared on Wikipedia roughly at the same time and promptly provided most timely support to 24.3.180.166 in the debate at hand. Of course, in retrospect, I realize those details were obviously nothing more than pure coincidences and wish to apologize for my paranoid behavior. Now that it's been established beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are in fact three entirely distinct entities, I think it is time for us to put aside our differences and celebrate the glorious serendipity that brought the three of you together in this discussion. Considering your many affinities, I think this might actually be the beginning of a beautiful friendship. The best of luck to the three of you! I'm also relieved that you turned out to be three completely unrelated strangers because otherwise, it would have meant that all three votes in favor of "Heather Morris" were actually cast by you alone, and I'm pretty sure that would have been bad form. Phew! PS: I'm so very sorry for my "common internet troll" manners, and I hope your guidance will help me correct this in the future. Cheers! 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC) I'm not playing the victim, I am being harassed, as 86 has once again just proven. I hate it when people go around accusing others of being puppets because they disagree with them. I guess, by that logic, 86 and all the people who agree about the name thing must also be the same person. Why don't you just get lost. We are trying to have a discussion here, but the nasty comments you're making are slowing down our progress.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC) I don't call that "being harassed." More like "being outed." It was about time, too. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC) You haven't outed anyone. You're just making a completely ridiculous accusation because you're upset people are disagreeing with you. I've seen this happen many times on wiki, with up to twenty people being accused just for agreeing on an issue. Go away already-you're ruining the discussion.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Considering the number of "coincidences," I'm willing to bet very few people (apart from you, naturally) will argue that my accusations are "completely ridiculous." By the way... Bonus Round: On this discussion page, only three users have been consistently adding their signatures right after the final period of their comments. No space in between the two, nothing. Can you guess which users share this peculiar habit? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Oh, grow up. Are you so desperate to keep the article the way you want it that you'd resort to something even lower than your earlier name-calling? Editting the same article as another person is not a crime, especially when that article is for a popular game series. And what's wrong with adding your signature at the end of your comments? You're supposed to sign your comments at the end. That's just common sense.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC) About my "earlier name-calling", I'm still wondering what it was exactly. I believe I asked you twice already, in fact. As for the signature thing, maybe you should try and read again, more carefully this time... Not that it will be particularly informative for you anyway... Bad faith? Pretty ugly and time-consuming. Please stop there. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC) You need to stop trolling. I've seen people like you before. You get off-track from the matter at hand and start harassing those who disagree with you. Yout name-calling is not something that needs to be pointed out, as it's as blatant as your rudeness and your harassment. And now you're bringing other people into it as well, solely for that same reason. Once again, just get lost. We're trying to have an actual discussion here. Take your bullying and harassment elsewhere.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Fragments of Jade, you have no right to tell somebody to get lost. So, really you're attacking him just as much as you think he is attacking you. Stop inciting this flame war You have repeatedly thought that people were attacking you personally. People would not be attacking you if you did not falsely accuse them of things that they did not do or had no intention of doing. The people disagreeing with you are disagreeing with your arguments and not trying to be mean or rude to you personally. Take a chill pill. Relax. The "Morris" last name is not the Holy Grail. It's not going to change life as we know it. It is especially not at all important on THIS page. So, please, stop accusing and start being productive. This is a ridiculous flame war that is only getting worse because of your insistence that people are harassing you which is completely unfounded and untrue. This is not the time or place to be arguing about senseless things. We're supposed to be talking about the relevance of Heather's last name, not how somebody is "being rude"... now, please, let's have a nice debate about what should be done and not a flame war that has nothing to do with the topic of the talk page. Thank you. Saquarry (talk) 21:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC) I'm not doing anything, so you've got some nerve trying to victimize me. I have every right to tell her to get lost-she's doing nothing but flaming anyway. You're only making matters worse by coming here and acting like she's not doing that. Her behavior to me and the other two has been extremely offensive, as has been her completele disregard for all points made by us and others supporting the inclusion of "Morris". There cannot be a "nice debate", as long as she is here being sarcastic, rude, and downright mean.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC) At this point, the best I can do is forget about the sock puppetry for a second and ask you again about that supposed e-mail you got from Konami. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC) So, Fragments of Jade, you can just order people around how ever you want? How is that right? You said the same thing about Thaddius earlier on this talk page as well. It seems that everybody who has a valid point to your argument is insulting you in some way. I would say that you really need to cool down and not go acting like you're God and saying that a person is trolling when all they're doing is pointing out ridiculous behavior committed by you. You also have little to no right to speak for the "other two". I think "they" can speak for themselves just fine. Stop making this into a victimization and get back on topic, please. There have already been plenty of sources provided showing your side and other sides as well, and I do not see any of the sources being more or less valid than any others. Read the Silent Hill 3 and Heather pages and see that they have already had this issue and have come to an agreement There are NO sources that prove beyond a doubt that Morris is Heather's last name. Now, as much as I would love to solve this debate, I get the feeling that with you this argument can only be "my way or no way". I think the compromise is COMPLETELY valid and saying that I am wrong or that I am attacking you will just make you seem like the lesser person. I am completely open to you changing my mind if you provide sources and information that proves that Morris is her intended last name. Since you have yet to provide those sources and I would even go as far as to say they do not exist, I would say compromise is the only source of action we can take. Many of the people on this talk page have been willing and ready to hear a discussion or a compromise from you or the other two users and yet I've seen nothing but scorn from you to anybody who disagrees with you or your position in this matter. Act like a bigger person and actually answer some of the questions people have asked you. There's nothing you can lose by answering those questions and you may even gain some support. I'm on the fence in this issue, but I feel the whole idea is irrelevant. Her last name does not matter to the story and there has been no proof one way or the other. Her name should be just "Heather" on this page with or without a footnote because I feel, and others seem to agree, that the Morris last name cannot be proven. If you can prove it to us beyond a reasonable doubt (just like a lawyer would in court) then I would feel that Morris would need to be added. So, show some proof and stop attacking me. I never tried to victimize you, you've done that to yourself. Thank you for reading and I hope we can all be mature here, act like adults, and find a compromise to this problem. Also I agree with 88.161.129.43, I think it would be very nice if we could see this email from Konami to confirm this "Morris" debacle. Saquarry (talk) 22:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Because both Thaddius and 86 have been offensive. Things were going fine until they started calling me names and making accusations that were completely uncalled for. In general, they've been nothing but rude. I have proven it, and as Wiki requires, I've cited that proof on the page. But no matter how many times I post the proof here, the people refuse to accept the truth and choose to keep accusing me of not explaining this or that or not posting any proof at all. If people directly affiliated with Konami are confirming her name is "Heather Morris", that, coupled with the statement by her creators that she was named after her voice actress, is more than enough.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Obviously it is not enough or all of us would be agreeing with you. Saquarry (talk) 22:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC) It's more than enough. And I don't see why I have to provide proof anyway. The article originally said Heather Morris, and it was you guys who chose to change it, so it should be you presenting proof. All you've come up with is articles confirming her first name is Heather, but nothing saying that her last name is not "Morris". And all those "Heather Mason" articles are not valid, because everyone knows that's not her real name and was created by fans due to "Mason" being her father Harry's last name in the original game.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Obviously, "everyone" does not know that Mason is not her last name because there wouldn't be sources that say it is her last name if "everyone" knew that it wasn't. IMDB, which I think is a very reputable website has a cast list as follows: Cast (in credits order) Heather Morris ... Heather / Cheryl (voice) Richard Grosse ... Douglas Cartland (voice) Donna Burke ... Claudia Wolf (voice) Clifford Rippel ... Father Vincent (voice) Matt Lagan ... Leonard Wolf (voice) Lenne Hardt ... Confessor (voice) Mike Matheson ... Borley Mansion Guide (voice) Now, I think that is telling to say the least because of the fact that all characters that are given last names have last names in the cast list, such as CLaudia Wolf, etc. Heather Morris is the voice actress, nobody disputes that, but as for the character, she is simply called, "Heather/Cheryl". Now, I think we need more sources to CONFIRM BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that her last name is Heather. You keep saying your sources are plenty, but they are not, so provide more. I would be easy to convice if you could just come up with a valid argument... vague "everyone"'s don't convince me of anything. I, for one, never knew her name was Heather Morris and, in fact, did think her name was Heather Mason for a long time. Now, I may have been wrong thinking it was Mason, but just because it is not Mason and there are some sources (that could have been misinterpreted) saying her last name is Morris and, at least an equal amount not giving a last name at all (probably because it is so ambiguous) I would say that you providing more information would be called for and needed for any kind of agreement to be met. Thank you for reading and I hope you could possibly give us the information required to solve this debate. Saquarry (talk) 23:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC) I already provided solid proof on this page. And her name is not "Heather Mason". This is made blatantly clear in the game, when it states they changed their names and went into hiding. We know he kept the first name "Harry", so keeping the same last name was definately out of the question. And imdb is not a reliable source. Anyone can add info on there, accurate or not. Just look at the alleged plot for the second Silent Hill film.>_>Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:16, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Yeah, anyone can edit the IMDb, and I think we all know how problematic that can be (hur hur hur). I know that's one of the first references I cited, but I'm very tempted to go back to the Ushinawareta Kioku ~Silent Hill Chronicle~ section of NTT Publishing's Silent Hill 3 guide (see here for a "scanlation".. I didn't review it all, far from it, but I believe the translation is reliable enough... I helped a tiny bit, if I recall well). It contains a lot of input from the development team, and no word of Heather's last name being "Morris", despite all the other characters being introduced under their full names. Jade was prompt to signal a timeline mistake (which is indeed there), but that's not nearly enough to discredit the whole thing. Unless she can name a better and more exhaustive plot guide to the Silent Hill series, that is... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC) A quick note on the assertion that the page "used to say Heather Morris" until people came along and changed it. Actually, that section dates all the way back to February 18, 2004 [5]. It is one of the earliest edits to the page. It was changed in 2005 to be pretty much what we have today, though the section has gotten incrementally tighter over time. There have been several thousand edits to this page since then, but the original text just said "Heather." And actually, "Heather" is all that has been listed on this page for the last four years or so; it is only very recently that people began to try to insert "Mason" and "Morris". One more point about sock puppet accusations: if we can't reach a conclusion that is amenable to everybody and this dispute goes to the arbitration committee, it will be trivially easy for them to use the CheckUser tool to see if any of the people posting here are sock puppets. So if any of you have done that, now might be a good time to stop. --waka (talk) 23:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC) There are no puppets, so stop it already. And Translated Memories has numerous mistakes, so it's hardly trustworthy. Even if it were, that's not enough to prove anything. I own a lot of Japanese guides for games, and they have a tendency to contradict known facts and even eachother sometimes. The article said "Heather Morris" for quite some time, before it was suddenly changed. That I know for certain.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC) It is easy enough to believe that the Japanese are not the only people who can make mistakes. It's easy enough to imagine that somebody bringing about the North American release heard that Heather's name was based upon Heather Morris and made a mistake. It's not a crazy mistake to make or anything else. American games make mistakes just like any other games or game guides. Silent Hill 3 was made in Japan. I would think that they would probably have the best notion as to what their own characters are called. That is just like in American games, one would hope that the American developers would know more about their own game than anybody else. That goes for any other country in the world too. The Japanese should know more about what they intended to do with this particular game than anything on the back of the US packaging would say. Saquarry (talk) 00:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Translated Memories has numerous mistakes "Numerous", really? Like what? 'Twas fairly reliable, as far as I remember. so it's hardly trustworthy. Again, can you name a better Silent Hill plot guide? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Except Konami has already confirmed it was not a mistake-it's her official NTSC name. And there isn't a good Silent Hill plot guide.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Except Konami has already confirmed it was not a mistake-it's her official NTSC name. Yeah, according to the mysterious e-mail you mentioned earlier. Sorry for being kinda skeptical... And even if it indeed were her "official NTSC name", what about the UK version, then? there isn't a good Silent Hill plot guide. But there are absolutely great US boxes, right? I mean... On one hand, you have an extensive guide (arguable the most extensive guide) with quite a lot of direct input from the creative team itself, but "no! it's not trustworthy!" (thanks for not telling me about the "numerous mistakes", by the way! after all, I obviously don't have any problem trusting your word, at this point in the discussion)... And on the other hand, you have an US game box... And you're basically saying that... *sigh* How does one report suspected sock puppetry? I'm beginning to think that's the only way to settle this "debate"... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC) There is no sock puppetry. And it's a shame you're willing to sink that low. You aren't getting your way, so now you're trying to sully the reputations of three people? That's just low. And there's no way for me to show you the email, as it's in my inbox. The box is far from the only proof. We've got what the original creators said about her being named after Heather Morris, the various articles that use that name, and at least one statement by a Konami official supporting it, along with their confirmation that they meant that to be her name in all english releases.Fragments of Jade (talk) 01:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC) There is no sock puppetry. No, just a bunch of cosmic coincidences! 'Guess we'll see, huh? there's no way for me to show you the email, as it's in my inbox. And I sure can't think of any way around that! We've got what the original creators said about her being named after Heather Morris Again, they also said that they named another character after Vincent Gallo. Would you argue that means that other character is named "Vincent Gallo"? In other words, that point is moot. their confirmation that they meant that to be her name in all english releases. It's a shame that confirmation is irremediably trapped in your inbox... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC) There is no instance of Vincent being called that, which is not the case with Heather. And who knows-maybe that is his last name. Stop being so lazy and email them yourself.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC) There is no instance of Vincent being called that, which is not the case with Heather. I realize that. I wasn't trying to prove that Heather was just "Heather", here. I was simply trying to show you that your "named after the voice actress" argument was moot. It could mean that they named the character "Heather Morris" just like it could mean that they simply named her "Heather." Therefore, it's useless in this debate. Stop being so lazy and email them yourself. You can't be bothered to copy/paste your supposed e-mail, and I'm the lazy one? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 02:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC) There's no point in doing that-you'll just deny it's real. Just puttting text here won't be enough to satisfy you.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Well, you'll certainly not convince anybody by simply mentioning that supposed e-mail as some great piece of evidence, that's for sure. Then again, do you even have something to show? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC) See? There's no way to convince you. You'll just deny it's real. So why not just contact them yourself? Of course, then you could easily fake an email. I wouldn't put it past you.Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC) See? There's no way to convince you. Despite your tremendous efforts in that regard. Of course, then you could easily fake an email. I wouldn't put it past you. Nice! Guys? Could we just ignore Jade? Please? Good faith is pretty much a requisite, in discussions such as this one, right? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 03:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Will you ever stop being rude? Your trollish behaviour is getting old. I have provided more than enough proof to support my claims and refute yours. Unwilling to accept that you might be wrong, you ignore this proof and insist I never posted any. Then, you began accusing me and the other people supporting "Heather Morris" of all being the same person. And now, you're trying to persuade other users to ignore me. You've been increasingly unproductive in this discussion, and are doing nothing but trying to incite a flame war. No more proof is needed than what I've already posted. If you are unwilling to accept it, that's tough.Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC) No offence Fragments of Jade, but you've been nothing but rude to everyone you've dealt with so far. Please tone it down a notch, and consider WP: Civil. Your accusations are not contributing to this discussion. --Thaddius (talk) 17:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Just wanted to put in my two cents that the last name is NOT important to the article in any way shape or form. We do have evidence for all three options for the last name (none, Mason and Morris), some of us refuse to admit that, but that's the case. I maintain my original stance that we can just leave it last-nameless and the world will continue to turn as if nothing has happened. Right? --Thaddius (talk) 17:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure the character has never been called "Heather Mason" (except by fans, anyway). Not that it really matters, here: I'm all for Heather simply being called "Heather" in the article. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Nice try, but I haven't been rude to anyone. I hate it when people turn a blind eye to stuff like this, then try to pin it off on the victim.Fragments of Jade (talk) 17:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC) I don't know about that. You've been persistently making hurtful accusations toward me from the beginning, and rereading what's been going on, you've been very flippant about some very good points that have been put forward. I also note that you've made some personal attacks, calling people 'jerks' and 'trollers'. Just calm down a bit and get back on topic, that's all I'm asking. --Thaddius (talk) 19:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC) I call people trolls when they act like trolls. You guys have repeatedly ignored my points and proof, called me names, and sullied my reputation by trying to claim I'm a sockpuppet, along with the two other people supporting my argument. Then you had the nerve to tell people to ignore me. Regardless of whether you like it or not, what I'm saying is the truth, whereas your proof has been almost nonexistant.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Ah! I found where you're going wrong. It's quite simply really: The majority of people here are NOT ignoring the sources saying Morris. Some of us have conceded that there are numerous sources saying that Morris, Mason and [blank]. As for the 'nonexistent proof' you referred to, I'd like to direct you to the links we all posted above. There's one to the Internet Movie Database, and another to gamespot (among others) that are just as much 'proof' as your own link. If you read them I'm sure you'll find them quite reliable sources, ones that qualify under WP: Verifiability anyhow. I don't know how you missed all this (I thought we had gone over all this, my mistake), but I'm certainly glad we got it all sorted out. --Thaddius (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC) See? Sarcasm again, and ignoring most of my post. None of what you stated even counts as proof. Neither of the sites you named are reliable. Especially imdb, which can be editted by anyone. And that still doesn't cover your dismissing my proof, the insults, accusation, and general rude manner you've been speaking to me, and this latest bid to ignore me then try and act like I'm the one doing wrong.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Um... no. I was serious: No one has ignored your sources, and; If you read the other sources you'd note that they're reliable sites that qualify under WP: Verifiability, as well as WP: Sources. It doesn't matter if you don't like the sources, they're there. I thought that, because your posts say things like 'no proof' and 'you're ignoring my sources', you had misunderstood what some people are saying here, but now it seems that you're just saying them because you're ignoring them, not because you didn't see them. I'm sorry to hear that you're still tossing around baseless\aimless accusations too and now you're lumping all of us people who disagree with you into one which is not really productive at all. --Thaddius (talk) 20:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC) You're one to talk. You guys are assuming those of us who support "Heather Morris" are all one person. And you're insulting us too, especially me. None of your sites are reliable. I could go and edit imdb right now to make it say "Heather Morris".Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC) You guys are assuming those of us who support "Heather Morris" are all one person. Wait. I am fairly certain you are. I wouldn't talk for the others (especially considering we're actually different people). 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC) See? There you go again. You should be ashamed of yourself. People are allowed to disagree with you, you know. It's uncalled for of you to retaliate by trying to accuse them of being sockpuppets to destroy their credibility. Liking the same game and editting the article for that game does not make them the same. Especially when the game series in question is one that is popular. Both you and I seem to have an interest in Space Channel 5. If I start editting that article, does that make me you?Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Fragments has decided to turn this into an argument about how all of us are ganging up against him to spread lies on Wikipedia. When's that mediation thing going to happen? --Thaddius (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Her. I'm a girl. And I was not the one who threw the first stone. You guys started it with the sarcasm and insults, then you start accusing me of being three people. And on top of that, you're trying to talk others into ignoring me. I've got every right to be ticked off, especially now, since you're also trying to pin the blame on me. I asked several times for the insults and accusations against me to stop and for the person responsible for them to get back on-topic. Funny how none of you are even bothering to say anything to the person who is really causing all this, simply because that person agrees with you. That's low.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC) I'd just like to remind you that this is not a discussion about how hard pressed you are. You swooped in here and started accusing me of unfounded harassment and vandalism so don't complain when people do the same to you. You are not a victim here, you've contributed your fair share to the accusations and insults, and you certainly haven't stopped. Getting back on topic: Numerous people have suggested compromise in this discussion in which there is clearly disagreement - compromises you've ignored. What is your suggestion for a compromise? --Thaddius (talk) 22:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Stop trying to pin the blame for this on me. You guys came in and started with the insults and accusations first, starting with the baby comment. You've all been nothing but rude, sarcastic, accusing, and cruel. I was only defending myself. As for a compromise, you guys are the ones always saying name details should be on her character page. I think "Heather Morris", her confirmed english name, should be left in the series description for the game, and the details of the name debate should be unbiasedly placed on her character page.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia has a rule about how the whole thing should be unbiased. It's called WP:NPOV (something I mentioned from the beginning). Calling her Morris anywhere, which isn't a confirmed English name because the Brit's game case calls her simply Heather, would be biased because it's not representing all the facts. --Thaddius (talk) 23:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC) It's not biased, or the Resident Evil article would just call the games by their Japanese name. And once again, it is the confirmed english name. You can email them yourself and ask them.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC) For the nth time, all English versions of Bio Hazard are called Resident Evil, so using the latter for the English Wikipedia articles is a no-brainer. On the other hand, the name "Morris" is never mentioned in the UK version of Silent Hill 3. As for the e-mail thing, we've asked you to show it to us several times, and you just won't. Don't act outraged if I wonder why. You're bringing this on yourself. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC) There is no way to show it. You'd just say it was fake, and you know it.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Well, at this point? I certainly can't say I trust you. BUT: 1) By the same logic, you've got nothing to lose, right? 2) I'm not your only interlocutor, here, remember? By all means, go ahead. Copy/paste the thing. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Fine. "Thank you for contacting Konami Support. At this time, we can only confirm that for all english releases of Silent Hill 3 her name is Heather Morris."Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Is that the whole thing? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Hi Jade, I'd like to e-mail them myself and verify. Can you tell me what the reply-to e-mail address was on that message? Also, you're not from Pittsburgh, are you? --waka (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC) As interesting as the e-mail is it obviously can't be added as proof because it doesn't fit under wikipedia's rules for sources. I'll let you know what Konami Europe has to say on the matter too if you'd like. --Thaddius (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC) That's true, but if Konami USA responds to me in favor of "Morris", I'd have to change my position from "this discussion is entirely without merit" to "huh, whaddya know?" --waka (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC) We should stay away from ethnocentricism though. If Konami Europe comes back with something different it'll be like the Yoshi's Universal Gravitation versus Yoshi Topsey-Turvey argument. And again, it'll be our word about the emails we got against what verifiable sources say. --Thaddius (talk) 01:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Agreed. An e-mail isn't a source. I'm just curious. --waka (talk) 02:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC) It's the whole thing, minus the beginning where they state my name. And like my name, where I live is not anyone's business. I will say, however, that I do not live in Pittsburgh. You shouldn't ask stuff like that online. It's creepy. And I did suggest emailing yourself.-.-;Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Did you copy/paste it? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 03:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Why are you asking that?Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC) I'd like to e-mail them. Could you give me the address that they contacted you with? That way I'm sure to get the same person and the same answer, right? PS: Jade, you deleted this comment with your previous one, probably because there was an edit conflict. Please be careful! --waka (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC) I can't give you that email address-it won't work. You have to email them seperately. It's hard to explain, but that's how it is with company sites. And you actually should delete your comments. According to the Wiki rules you love to cite, you can't give out personal information like that. And it's seriously really creepy that you're doing so. I mean, they could be underage for all you know, and you're going around telling people the exact counties they live in. You really should delete it.Fragments of Jade (talk) 03:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC) I don't believe you about company e-mail addresses. I work for a company, it has normal e-mail addresses. Perhaps you cannot produce an e-mail address because the e-mail is a fabrication. Also, IP addresses are public information; anybody can look them up, like the area code from a phone number. People who are concerned about the privacy of their location shouldn't use the internet--your IP address is shared with every web page you visit. --waka (talk) 03:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Also, Jade, please understand: I'm not accusing you of being a sock puppet. The mediation committee can confirm that one way or the other very easily, and I don't think that there's any point in making such accusations without facts to back them up. But if you (or any of the others here who have posted) are in fact using multiple accounts, now might be a good time to come clean about it, rather than having the mediation committee publicly humiliate you later. --waka (talk) 04:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC) If you work for a company, then you should know multiple people answer the emails. There is no way to give you an email that will connect you to the same person I spoke with. All you can do is go to their page and submit an email of your own. And I read the rules-it specifically forbids giving out personal information, especially as detailed as what you have given. I highly suggest you delete it or risk being reported.Fragments of Jade (talk) 04:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC) How about you give me the e-mail address that was your reply-to address and I'll contact them and see for myself? That would do a lot more for your argument. Also, please read about IP Address; it's public information that you share every single day (and the reason that most sock puppets are exposed). --waka (talk) 04:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Stop being so lazy. And there's no way to do that. And as I said, I already read the rules. It's possible to be banned for giving out personal information. Even for staff members, they can only do it under the most extreme circumstances.Fragments of Jade (talk) 04:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC) I'm not being lazy, I'm trying to get you to verify that your source is not just something that you made up. I don't believe that you actually e-mailed Konami, and I don't believe that they would fail to capitalize the word "English", and I don't believe that they would specify the American region by saying "NTSC," since that covers Japan as well. I think that you made the e-mail up in an attempt to strengthen your argument. But, I could be wrong, and there's a very easy way to prove it: just provide the e-mail address for the message that you received. As I said before, if it is the case that you or anybody else here has tried to use sock puppetry or falsified sources, the mediation committee will discover it quickly and it will look very bad for the offenders. If you have something to admit, now is the time. --waka (talk) 04:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Same suspicions here. Nobody failed to capitalize the word "English" during this discussion... except for you, Fragments of Jade. Many times. Which is why I asked you to confirm about the copy/paste thing. Also, I find that reply to be quite... terse. So terse in fact, that it's actually shorter and less detailed than your first recount: An email to Konami has also confirmed that, if nothing else, "Heather Morris" is NOT an error and is officially her name in the english releases, though they are currently not sure if it is her name in the Japanese version. They're certain about the english releases, though. versus Thank you for contacting Konami Support. At this time, we can only confirm that for all english releases of Silent Hill 3 her name is Heather Morris. So, yeah, like you expected, I'm not exactly convinced, Fragments of Jade. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Konami never said "NTSC". Where do you see that in the email? I already said, you have to email yourself if you want to verify it. You can't use someone else's ticket and it is all the same email with different people answering. I have nothing to admit. I'm me and no one else. And even they are not permitted to reveal personal information like that. I strongly hope those two report you for endangering them and revealing their personal information.Fragments of Jade (talk) 05:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Spare us your outrage. It's uncalled for. Anybody can see "their" IPs. And your "e-mail ticket" thing doesn't make sense. I'm afraid that's about as convincing as "I can't show you the e-mail: it's in my inbox!", "US boxes not including the main character's last name? that would be unheard of!", etc. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Why did you even post? You're not saying anything even remotely productive-you're just trying to fuel another fight. An outrage is called for. Some guy on the internet took the time to track down where these people live and is posting it publically, which is against the rules he keeps insisting everyone else follows. What I said about the email makes perfect sense, and just as I said, no one believes it's real. US boxes always have the last name. I don't know what your problem is with Americans, but the racist remarks are uncalled for. And if you don't know about tickets when emailing companies, then that's your problem. When you submit a question or problem, your issue is given a ticket number, so they can keep track of them. You can't just go around giving your ticket number to other people so they can try emailing it. That's not how things work. You all need to stop being lazy and take the time to email them yourselves instead of trying to get me to do something that's wrong and giving out illegal information.Fragments of Jade (talk) 08:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Some guy on the internet took the time to track down where these people live and is posting it publically, which is against the rules he keeps insisting everyone else follows. Again, IPs are public. Besides, I certainly don't feel particularly endangered now that people "know" where I am. "Paris, Île-de-France"? That's about 11 million people. I should be fine (not that you seemed concerned about me). What I said about the email makes perfect sense Not quite. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from giving him the e-mail address. US boxes always have the last name. And that's a fact! I don't know what your problem is with Americans, but the racist remarks are uncalled for. So after the name-calling thing, I'm now racist as well? Somehow? Please keep me updated on that front, just so I'll know when to start running from the police! 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Again, nothing more than pointless sarcastic remarks and insults from you. And there's a large difference between him saying you live in the very large country of France and telling the exact state, city, and county of a person. Most counties are not particularily big, and he's breaking the rules by sharing information he really never should have looked up in the first place. It's rude and creepy.Fragments of Jade (talk) 08:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Again, nothing more than pointless sarcastic remarks and insults from you. Apart from the fact I have to repeat myself over and over again, I don't think my remarks were "pointless." Sarcastic? Yeah, I guess. It's hard for me to take your bizarre outrage seriously, or to remain entirely courteous considering your bad faith. And "insults"? OK, then. It's a bit of a letdown after the accusations of racism though. Surely, you can do better than that. information he really never should have looked up in the first place. It's public. You do read our replies, yes? there's a large difference between him saying you live in the very large country of France and telling the exact state, city, and county of a person. Again, WHOIS tells you that I'm in "Paris, Île-de-France." Anyway, considering there are still more than 2 million souls in Pittsburgh, I wouldn't lose sleep over your soul mates' safety, really. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC) You seriously need to get lost. You're not helping this discussion, and it's clear you're only hear to start trouble. And once again, he gave the exact county, which can be as little as 100 or 200 people. Even the whole city has nowhere near a million people. And he's breaking the rules. I don't know either of them, no matter how much you try and say so because you can't handle people disagreeing with you. But I do know what he did was wrong and should be deleted.Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC) he gave the exact county He mentioned Pittsburgh and Coraopolis (note that WHOIS now points towards Pittsburgh in both cases again... 'tells you how deadly precise the thing is). That would be the Allegheny County, i.e. more than one million people. I do know what he did was wrong and should be deleted. And I can see you've already taken care of that... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC) You're wrong. The city of Pittsburgh doesn't even have anywhere near one million residents, and the county has even less. Wikipedia itself attests to that.Fragments of Jade (talk) 09:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Allegheny County, Pennsylvania 'Just saying. It's not like I'm familiar with the place... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC) You don't live in America, so I guess you wouldn't know, but it's quite common knowledge. I don't believe we have any states that have over one million people, let alone cities and counties.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Considering the WHOIS also pointed to Coraopolis, I was talking about the metropolitan area of Pittsburgh, rather than about Pittsburgh alone. Same thing when I mentioned Paris, actually (it's 11 million habitants for the urban area, but only 2 million for the actual city). I don't believe we have any states that have over one million people Dude... And yes, the Allegheny County counts more than one million souls, according to Wikipedia. I told you as much by giving you the link to the relevant article in my previous comment, but you apparently deleted it. How clumsy. I put it back for you. Anyway... What about the rest? For example, since when do US boxes always mention last names? Oh, hey, I'm not so sure they're talking about Siegfried Schtauffen, here! And how is pointing out the absurdity of such a statement "racist" in any way, exactly? I'll note that's another strange similarity between you and 76.120.173.40: you're both claiming that there's some sort of "rule" about US boxes mentioning the last names of the main characters, and you're both calling me "racist" for pointing out the absurdity of that claim. What are the odds? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC) You are once again wrong. Both of those counties are IN Pittsburgh. If Pittsburgh doesn't have over a million people, no way can the counties. And I already looked, the entire city doesn't even come close to a million, only over 300,000 or so. And I was referring to horror games. If the character's first name is on the back of the box, the last name will always be included, except in the cases where the main character has amnesia or something and doesn't know their last name. It's just how it is. And again, how can you claim that it's absurd or untrue. What, do you import US games?Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 1) Stop editing other people's comments. 2) I already explained that I was talking about the metropolitan area of Pittsburgh, and why I did that. 3) You've got some nerve to tell me that I'm "once again wrong" when you've just said that you didn't believe any state of the USA had more than one million inhabitants. 43 states out of 50 do, but hey, that's trivial! Good thing you actually live there... 4) You didn't say you were referring to horror games. Not that it changes anything to the preposterousness of the statement. And by the way... 5) And again, how can you claim that it's absurd or untrue. What, do you import US games? I don't (but what if I did?? do you think that's illegal, or something?), but like I just showed you, it's not exactly hard to find these things on the internet. 6) Don't you know when to stop? Seriously, now. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 1. Said comments violate the privacy laws of Wikipedia. 2. It doesn't matter, you're still wrong. 3. This is not the first time you've been wrong. And I never said we didn't. I said I didn't believe we did. Either way, I hardly trust your word, since you're still saying that county has more than one million people. 4/5. I've said it multiple times. And you don't know anything about it. You've admitted that you don't own or play US games, so how do you know what's custom on the backs of boxes for survival horror games? You don't. Thus, you have no right to go around making nasty comments and being sarcastic over things you know nothing about. 6. You've over and over again harassed me, now turning this whole talk page into an off-topic flame war. Even when you were on-topic, you couldn't stay civil for more than two seconds, and every word you said was laced with either rudeness or sarcasm. So clearly, you don't know when to quit. You twist my words around just so you can make even more comments. You've given a perfect example by mocking what I say about US game boxes, though you admit to never owning or playing a US game. Enough already.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 1) Prove it. 2) Yeah, don't bother explaining how exactly. 3) Yeah, you said you didn't believe so. And you were dead wrong. Which was my point. 4/5) No, you didn't specifically state that you were referring to horror games. And again, that doesn't change a thing anyway. And I don't need to actually own US games to prove you're wrong. I've just demonstrated that with the Resident Evil 2 back cover. But of course, you're pretending that didn't happen. 6) I'm simply demonstrating that you're a troll. Thank you for your cooperation. I believe we've both made that fact clear enough, now. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 1. Go look it up for yourself. It's common knowledge, not just on Wiki, but everywhere. Because if someone here were to go and find those two and hurt them using the private information revealed here, it would be Wiki facing a lawsuit and massive public damage. 2. I already said how. If Pittsburgh doesn't have more than one million people, which it doesn't, then there's no way the county can have one million, no matter how you look at it. 3. Your point was pointless. 4/5. I did specifically state multiple times I was referring to games like Silent Hill-horror games. Resident Evil 2 alone is not enough to prove anything, as there will always be a few exceptions-I said it was rare, not impossible. And for the record, that game would fall under what I was saying earlier, about cases where the last name was excluded for a reason. In this case, to temporarily conceal Claire's identity, if only briefly. And since they didn't put her last name, they very well couldn't put Leon's. 6. You've only proven yourself to be a troll. Your sarcasm, your nasty attitude, ignoring proof, and going as far as to victimize those who disagree with you...All common troll behaviour.Fragments of Jade (talk) 11:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 1) Where is it? 2) The metropolitan area of Pittsburgh does. Same thing for the Allegheny County. 3) Sure it was. 4/5) No, you didn't specifically state that you were referring to horror games. I don't even know why you're lying about that, as anyone can check. As for the Resident Evil 2 back cover, for there to be "exceptions", there would need to be a rule in the first place. 6) Whatever. I believe I'm done, here. Except if you keep editing my comments, naturally. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC) 1. Try reading it. First, it makes it clear only Wiki staff may reveal private info, and that is limited to IP addresses only, and the circumstances under which this is allowed is strict. Not even the staff, however, is allowed to post where a person lives, especially to such detail, so what makes you think you can endanger a person like that and violate their privacy? 2. No, it doesn't. There is nowhere near one million people there. The ENTIRE city doesn't even have more than 400,000 people living there. The counties are IN the cities. 3. Much like everything else you say, it was solely intended to start an argument. 4/5. Yes, I repeatedly made it clear what kind of games I was referring to. Try actually reading what people type for once, and you might know that. And I never said there was a rule. I said that it was extremely common and rarely not the case, which is true. You can't testify to that fact, because you don't have access to US games. 6. Good. Be done. Maybe then we can get back to the normal discussion. But as long as your comments violate the privacy of other and the policy of Wiki, they will be editted. Maybe you don't mind a bunch of people knowing where you live, but some people do.Fragments of Jade (talk) 11:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC) It would seem that we've gone off topic yet again. The population of cities in the US, the place that Fragments lives and rampant accusations and whining have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion (the plural you, not the specific you) please refrain from posting. Calm down everyone and remain civil. --Thaddius (talk) 11:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC) I'm sorry about that. That kind of bad faith is hard to take. I did try to go back on topic with the "US back covers always mention the last names" thing, but as you can see... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Hey, don't try and act like you're all innocent here. You're the one who popped in here just to mock me for calling Waka out on his blatant violation of the privacy laws on Wiki. And you're doing the same thing. It's bad enough you've revealed the city and state these two presumably live in, but the county is just going to far. Their lives are not your playthings. You need to stop and you need to stop nowFragments of Jade (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As an outsider looking in...

I just want to say, this argument about a last name seems rather puerile, and in many ways irrelevant.

Everyone acknowledges that different releases/localizations of most games have minor changes.

Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia when it comes to country bias.

If you'll permit me to make a minor suggestion (since I have little to do with this article, I'm not going to do this myself)

Start a section called "Major Characters". List the characters. In brackets, or as a table (after each character's name) include something along the lines of (occasionally referred to Blah Blah in some versions and localizations). If the person is 99.9% of the time referred to by a single name, yet we happen to know the last name (or even REAL name :) ) then this is the place to list it. Your references then merely link to the article url.

You have then removed any biases, and everybody goes home and plays the game happily. Bwilkins (talk) 11:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm just wondering... Would that be the sole purpose of the table? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:55, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• Well, this is something along the lines of what I envisage. Feel free to use it, PLEASE so this argument stops! Bwilkins (talk) 12:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Character	Appears in	aka
Harry Mason	Silent Hill, Silent Hill: Play Novel
James Sunderland	Silent Hill 2
Heather	Silent Hill 3	Heather Morris

Heather is the only character whose exact name is debatable, I believe, and few characters appear in different games, so I'm not sure if that kind of table would be justifiable... And I realize that you're trying to help resolve the situation, here, but since that table would basically call the character "Heather" and simply add the "Heather Morris" name as a sidenote of sorts, I'm not sure it's all that different from the compromise Fragments of Jade is still objecting too... ^^; 88.161.129.43 (talk) 13:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the name "Heather Morris" ever mentioned in the gameplay at all? If not, the character's name in the game is "Heather", even though we know differently. Isn't there also something somewhere noting that some characters changed their names? That would go into the aka column too.

I mean seriously, if your name is "Thomas Wayne Smith", but everyone only knows you as "Thomas Smith", does it make the "Wayne" part somehow useless? No.

If I go off to the dog-park, and I know that one of the dog-owners name is "Michelle", but that's all I know, does it even MATTER that her name is "Michelle Mabelle"? To her, yes. To her bank, yes. To her husband, yes. To me, not really.

There are people writing articles about typhoons, floods, hurricanes, famines and wars ... to go this far about how to handle the inclusion of a surname that only exists in some locations is ... well, sad. Bwilkins (talk) 14:14, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the outside opinion (you too, Hand that Feeds). For reference, this character is only referred to as "Heather" in the game itself. The last name isn't relevant to the story, and as far as I can tell the only place it's ever documented is on the back of the box. --waka (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Another view

When the discussion degrades back to sniping at each other, nothing productive can happen. If people cannot put this behind them to constructively work on this page, I suggest you stay away from it. Any more hostility will bring admin attention to this article. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My only involvement so far was to close the earlier discussion, as it had degraded to "Yes it is/No it isn't." Now, we're already back to an edit-war that really qualifies for WP:LAME status. My outside view: press releases are not reliable sources for citing Wikipedia. Box packaging is a gray area, but not generally considered reliable, as it's simply advertising for the product. This revision seems the best compromise on the subject to date. If that fails, I would say the entire "Morris" mention simply should be removed, as it really is only a minor note in the advertising of the product in North America. The above table is an interesting idea, and if all parties agree to it, we could use that as a compromise instead. It would probably best appear either on the right-hand side, or a sub-section just above the References. Personally, though, I'd say the linked revision above is the best way to handle the situation. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 13:14, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Well, that didn't go well. Fragments of Jade has been blocked for 48 hours due to violating WP:3RR. I was hoping s/he would be willing to at least discuss this first. Jade, I hope when your block expires you'll be willing to talk about this issue here before you return to reverting. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC) I agree...truly unfortunate Bwilkins (talk) 15:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC) I actually already added it to WP:LAME#Names a while ago. I actually agree with The Hand That Feeds, that revision you posted is fine enough. It's really Fragments and the two unknowns who insist on the last name being there. It's completely irrelevant and I'm embarrassed that I'm involved in it but it's a matter of talking sense into those three. You're preaching to the choir otherwise. --Thaddius (talk) 01:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC) So, why doesn't someone who knows this subject matter try adding the table for the heck of it. Any character who's name changes will have an aka entry. Make sure it's high enough up on the page to be "important" so that the user knows you're taking his/her concerns/knowledge seriously. I'm going to go back to editing the stuff I usually do now ... after all, I've now been labelled a "creep", and the user believes I'm a sockpuppet of one of you guys (all he had to do it look at my edit history and he'd know otherwise. But he's upset and touchy. He's either going to come back and do a lot of vandalism in places, or (depending on how old he/she is) will come back having spent a day or so thinking about things. Good luck with the future advancement of this article. BMW(drive) 09:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC) As far as I know, Heather is the only one who's name changed\is in dispute (in a way Heather used to be Alessa Gillespie and Cheryl Mason). Harry Mason, James Sunderland, Henry Townshend and Travis Grady (the protagonists of the other games) are stated as such from the beginning and it's never called into question. The table would only have 'Heather Morris' and 'Heather Mason' in the 'aka' part. I have added something to the Heather (Silent Hill) character page about the dispute (it could be refined I admit) so there really doesn't need to be any mention of this debate. We can just like to that section of the article or something. --Thaddius (talk) 12:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Just noticed that Heather (Silent Hill) is redirecting to Silent Hill 3. So nevermind. --Thaddius (talk) 12:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC) You guys are still badmouthing me, I see. I'm disgusted by how low you'll stoop. Now that I know most of your are just a bunch of duplicate accounts, a lot makes sense. I was the one who offered compromise after compromise and proof after proof, while you guys just ignored them, made nasty remarks, and avoided the rules because an admin was pulling the puppet strings. It's sad that Wikipedia has become this way and is allowing such false information to be shared. Its now even less reliable than before, and you are victimizing SH fans everywhere.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Whoa. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC) It's sad that you feel the need to be so childish and continue to try and provoke me instead of having a mature discussion. And it's even sadder that Wikipedia is allowing and supporting your behavior.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC) I think you're taking this far too personally. SH fans are not being victimized, by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, I'm a fan of the series myself. Second, making blanket accusations of sock puppetry is bad form. No admin is pulling my strings. Finally, what "false" information are you talking about here? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Don't tell me to cool down. I'm taking this personally because I'm being harassed, mocked, and treated unfairly. And you wanna lecture me about accusations? Why don't you say something to the others, who accused everyone of supported me of being sock puppets, solely to get them out of the picture and try and get me in trouble. Also, I never said that you were one-I was referring to the main participaters in the debate, who have managed to break the revert rules multiple times but never get punished, as well as suspiciously avoided breaking them again by spacing edits inbetween them. The timing is just too suspicious. The false information is that her name is just "Heather". It's false and illogical.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Why don't you say something to the others, who accused everyone of supported me of being sock puppets, solely to get them out of the picture and try and get me in trouble. If you are one and the same, that would be well-deserved. If you aren't, you've got nothing to worry about. So what's the problem, again? I was referring to the main participaters in the debate, who have managed to break the revert rules multiple times but never get punished, as well as suspiciously avoided breaking them again by spacing edits inbetween them. The timing is just too suspicious. Er... Nobody broke the 3RR. Well, you did, but nobody else did, is what I'm saying. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:21, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Simply put, Jade, it's not false. The information presented is correct. She is only given a last name in the advertising on the box, and in a press release. Never anywhere else. The current version of the article explicitly explains this. And I'm still not sure what you see is "suspicious" about the other people editing here. Unless you wish to make a claim of sock-puppetry, there's no way any of the edits violated Wikipedia's rules. Really, this is just a case where other people disagree with you. Please, I'm asking you to calm down and not take the situation so personally. You seem like a good editor, but it's very easy to cross the line into breaking the rules when you get upset. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 23:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC) singing* "I'm a sockpuppet, he's a sockpuppet, wouldn't you like to be a sockpuppet too??" BMW(drive) 23:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Neither of you are helping matters-you are making them worse. First of all, you come here and start insulting me for the accusations I make, but say nothing to the others, who made them first and without good cause. Second, it is personal, because of all the insults and mocking I was subjected to. Third, at least three other people broke the rule, even the admins admitted to that much, but not one of them were punished. Fourth, there is nothing funny about socks. Those rumors have gotten a lot of people unfairly banned in the past and ruin a lot of reputations.Fragments of Jade (talk) 02:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC) the others, who made them first and without good cause. You've got some nerve... at least three other people broke the rule, even the admins admitted to that much That's simply not true. there is nothing funny about socks. Those rumors have gotten a lot of people unfairly banned in the past and ruin a lot of reputations. "Reputations ruined", huh? Wow. And again, it's not like you've got anything to worry about, if my accusations are baseless. So why so concerned? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC) What's going to be really sad is when we finally are made officially aware that when Konami US transliterated the information from the original game, they mistakenly thought that the character Heather's last name was "Morris" because they saw the references to a Heather Morris, and thought they were the same person (have you ever tried to translate from Japanese?). That said, there's no reason to pick on FoJ at all. Rather than look at things logically, they continue to believe that "my version of a compromise is that my information is right". Even if they strike first, let it pass. If they feel that they've been ganged-up on, then they will continue to fight back. One of our roles is to bring people "on-board", and having someone continue to feel that they are downtrodden won't help that. Let's just everybody get back to what Wikipedia is about: editing good articles. BMW(drive) 14:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC) You broke the rule, 88, as did your "friends". And you all have harassed me, no matter how much you try and deny it. And you know it doesn't matter if the accusations are not true-once you get it out there, the shadow is always hanging there, which is exactly what you were going for. You've yet to contribute anything but trouble to this discussion. Bwilkins, I don't appreciate your talking down on me either. I'm not an idtiot. I made a good compromise, but you clearly know nothing about it. I also went through the trouble of contacting Konami US, who confirmed Heather Morris as the official name for all English releases of the game. I found multiple articles as well. And I never struck first. You're making things worse by acting like I'm the bad guys here. I made an edit based on what I knew to be true, along with lots of research. All of a sudden, I'm accused of being a fake, racist remarks are made, I'm forced to deal with constant sarcasm, my points and proof and compromises are all ignored, people like you don't bother reading and just label me as the bad guy and proceed to talk down about me to others...and that's just the tip of the tip of the ice berg. Aside from his accusaations of vandalism on my talk page, and the talk pages of others, the first stone was thrown by a member of the other team, who accused me of being a baby and insulting my argument without bothering to address it properly.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC) You broke the rule, 88, as did your "friends" If you say so. Don't bother going into specifics, really! And I'm guessing the only reason you're not reporting us is that Wikipedia is corrupt, huh? once you get it out there, the shadow is always hanging there, which is exactly what you were going for. Wrong, sorry. I'm really hoping to get you blocked for sock puppetry. racist remarks are made 'Still not true. But thanks for the baseless accusations, as always. the first stone was thrown by a member of the other team, who accused me of being a baby That's not exactly what waka said and he apologized anyway. Somehow, I doubt you'll ever apologize for your overall hostility. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

On the accuracy of the backs of Silent Hill game boxes

Hey all, this is Maggie, I really don't usually join into these Wiki debates (hence no account), and I don't have a final opinion on Heather's last name, but I do want to point out that in terms of the debate on the fact that the box calling her "Heather Morris" makes it canon, the back of the original Silent Hill says "Harry Mason and his daugther Cheryl are driving to their favorite vacation spot" even though as far as I've ever read, that statement was never verified as canon in the series (in fact in SH3, Harry's letter to Heather makes it sound like it was Heather's idea to go and that they did not usually ever go there). So maybe going by the back of the box isn't the absolute best way to verify things. The advertising folk can make mistakes.  :)66.186.99.197 (talk) 02:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Maggie. :) Actually that's a good point - had Harry and Cheryl visited Silent Hill previously they would probably have caused the fracturing of the town that much earlier so it couldn't really be their favourite spot unless their idea of vacation is a literal hell on Earth. For now the 'debate' has become stagnant though, since the main purporter of the 'Her name is Morris, god dammit!' side of things has been banned. Hopefully this won't come up again... but that's what I said last time. :P --Thaddius (talk) 15:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know FoJ was gone. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 22:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, have a quick peek on their talk page. The sockpuppetry became too obvious. BMW(drive) 23:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Filler Music

I'm not sure if I'm imagining this or if it's real. But if you listen to the first Nightmare on Elm Street you'll hear all the filler sounds in Silent Hill (i.e. the creepy music you get when you're about to come upon something). My roommate and I both replayed the DVD and listened to some of it again to verify what we were listening too. Does anyone know anything about this? Like maybe I should take a break from the game? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jocasta4833 (talk • contribs) 10:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Which should be played first?

I haven't played any of these games but I've been meaning too. Which should be played first? What would be the better order to play these games? Jamhaw (talk) 01:55, 22 February 2009 (UTC)jamhaw