Talk:Silvestras Žukauskas

His roots

@User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus

Anyone interested in S. Žukauskas' biography should feel like a detective - even the essential facts about his date of birth, place or even origin are not clear. The most common date of birth is December 31, 1860, but there are other dates in S. Žukauskas' military service documents and other sources - 1861, 1864, 1865. Disputes also arise over the place of birth. There is no doubt that S. Žukauskas was born in a small settlement in the Pakruojis area, but the exact location in historical sources differs: sometimes Dovainiškis is mentioned, sometimes - Paoškočiai. A certain prevailing interpretation is established by the memorial monument built in Dovainiškis village in 1995, on which it is written: “The first commander of the Lithuanian Armed Forces, gener. Silvestras Žukauskas (1860–1937). ”Questions also arise about its origin. Apparently, S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest stratum of the aristocracy and had Polish roots.

Read more: [1] © Lithuanian news GizzyCatBella🍁 12:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC) I’ll add that most of the above is covered in the article already - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Than I don't understand why User:Cukrakalnis keep removing the mention of his Polish origins? Marcelus (talk) 12:33, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus You did not provide a source that clearly stated it as such. That was the whole point.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

My understanding is - the info is not %100 clear/without doubts, as stated in sources and the article itself. Most likely, he was a descendant of some Polish Nobels, but as sources say, nobody is %100 sure. - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Your understanding about the info being unclear is right. Unfortunately, a lot of information is missing about Žukauskas, so we can't talk in absolute terms, only in possibilities.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Lead

Lead too long - strikethrough should be moved to the articles body:

Silvestras Žukauskas (Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army and later in the Lithuanian Army. He was the Chief Commander of the Lithuanian Army three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928. One of his contemporaries, Vincas Grigaliūnas-Glovackis, called Žukauskas as "of Polish culture" and "close to Poles and Russians". Historians have noted Žukauskas' sympathy towards Poland. According to Mykolas Varnas, although a lot about Žukauskas is a mystery, e.g. birthday, birth place and even origins, "it seems as though S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest level of aristocracy and had Polish roots".

Žukauskas enlisted with the Imperial Russian Army in 1881. After graduating from Vilnius Military School, he served in various units and was promoted to polkovnik (colonel) in 1913. At the start of World War I, he was given command of the newly-raised 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment. From October 1914 to April 1915, the regiment fought and suffered heavy losses near Sochaczew in present-day Poland. In May–July 1915, the regiment fought in present-day Lithuania. For the defence of Šiauliai, Žukauskas was awarded the Saint George Sword. From August 1915 to July 1917, he commanded men in securing positions along the Daugava River and approaches to Daugavpils. In April 1916, Žukauskas became a brigade commander of the 1st Infantry Division and was promoted to major general in November. In May 1917, he became commander of the 1st Infantry Division. When most of the division was captured by the Germans in February 1918, Žukauskas was demobilized.

He returned to Lithuania in April 1919 and immediately became Chief of the General Staff. He organized a successful offensive against the invading Soviet forces which pushed them across the Daugava River by the end of August 1919. He was dismissed from the command due to the Polish coup d'état attempt – the mutineers planned to install him as a military dictator. Žukauskas likely did not know about the planned coup but he gained a reputation as a Polish sympathizer, spoke Polish, and faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 when communist-inspired soldiers mutinied in Kaunas and in October 1920 after Lithuanian forces suffered a loss in the Battle of Sejny. He organized Lithuanian defence against the Żeligowski's Mutiny and commanded Lithuanian forces in the battles near Giedraičiai and Širvintos in November 1920. Despite his critics, he earned a reputation as one of the key figures of the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. He resigned from active military duty in June 1921 but was brought back from retirement in June 1923. This time, he was the commander of the Lithuanian Army until January 1928. He focused on improving military discipline and education. GizzyCatBella🍁 12:36, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

References

@GizzyCatBella🍁 I wholeheartedly agree with your choice of words for the lead.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:39, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

User:GizzyCatBella Lead wasn't too long it's a standard to include short biography within a lead, which is later extended in the main body of the article. As I said currently linked sources are good enough basis for the wording "Lithuanian general of Polish origins". Marcelus (talk) 12:54, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The ONE source for such a wording is flimsy and clearly stated that this is just a likelihood. Moreover, to place it in the lead is unwarranted, considering that e.g. the articles on Józef Piłsudski, Lucjan Żeligowski and Adam Mickiewicz do not mention their origins, whatever they may be.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

@ Marcelus - I’m not sure about that, but I’m not God either. You may try to get more eyes here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:06, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Cukrakalnis Let's be serious now. I presented you couple sources that were talking about Žukauskas as a straight up Polish guy, then you demanded a source that will explictly state that he was "of Polish origins". When such source was presented to you, you claim it is invalid, because it's just one source. And you try to undermine it for some unknown reason. It's hard to believe you argue in a good faith Marcelus (talk) 07:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Marcelus - Where did you record those references? Where are they? - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:18, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella What you mean? I don't understand. Marcelus (talk) 10:34, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

You wrote --> I presented you couple sources.. where? - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:51, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Here + plus the source you linked Marcelus (talk) 18:07, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

So you didn’t present a "couple" of sources but "one". Okay - what these reference tell precisely, please cite below - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Well you can look it up for yousefl. But here you go: 1. Glowackis:

Being of Polish culture himself, he was close to Poles and Russians, but very distant from Lithuanians, especially those who did not bow down to him and deify him. (...) He protected the Poles, the Russians and those Lithuanians who adored and adored him. He rewarded Lithuania with the organisers of POW [Polish Military Organisations]: the Otockis, Dzengelevskis, Beneševičius, Ramanauskas (...) As Lithuania's representative to the Niesel Commission, he favoured the French and Poles over the Lithuanians (...) Perhaps the fact that he married his daughter to a Polish officer and made his son a Polish officer could also be counted among the "merits" of this commander. If a writer thought of writing about Žukauskas' loyalty to the cards and the girls, he would find plenty of material, but it is absurd to write about his loyalty and his merits for Lithuania.

2. Kilinskas:

The historian Piotr Łossowski has noticed that General Žukauskas was blamed for being well disposed towards Poland. It should be admitted that this claim is well grounded. It is revealed by several aspects of the activities of General Žukauskas. The pro-Polish views of the general caused dissatisfaction among Lithuanian officers,40 followed by the dismissal of General Žukauskas41 and his adjutants from the army on 26 September 1919.42 However, General Žukauskas was steadfast in standing up for his dismissed aide-de-camps, and actively supported and defended Colonel Vojtekūnas in the trial of POW members in December 1920. Thus, he indirectly confirmed his earlier favourable political preferences for Poland.

3. Article linked by you:

Apparently, S. Žukauskas' parents Konstantinas and Martina were landless nobles, so the future general belonged to the lowest stratum of the aristocracy and had Polish roots.

Marcelus (talk) 09:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@ Marcelus - Okay, so now:

• Source 1 - Being of Polish culture himself + close to Poles and Russians, but very distant from Lithuanians + he favoured the French and Poles over the Lithuanians + married daughter to a Polish officer and made his son a Polish officer
• Source 2 - blamed for being well disposed towards Poland + pro-Polish views of the general + favourable political preferences for Poland
• Source 3 - Apparently, S. Žukauskas' .... had Polish roots.

Which source says Žukauskas was of Polish origins? If you came to an unquestionable conclusion summing together the info above, then that might be WP:OR in my opinion. His attachment to Poland is already reported in the article's body per sources. Honestly, I don't understand why you insist but as I said, I'm not God. Get some more eyes here maybe. I might ask for the opinion of others myself too. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

That's why I said that you need read the sources yourself. Kalisnkas article speaks about the conflict between young ethnic Lithuanian officers and older officers of mixed or straight up non-Lithuanian ehtnicity. The last sources also is straight-forward saying that Žukauskas had Polihs roots. So I don't even know why we keep talking about it Marcelus (talk) 10:43, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus Let's be serious now. - Are you saying previous discussions were not serious? As far as I see it, it was always serious. I presented you couple sources that were talking about Žukauskas as a straight up Polish guy, - no, as GizzyCatBella agrees, reaching conclusions about a straight up Polish guy on these sources is WP:OR. then you demanded a source that will explictly state that he was "of Polish origins". - I asked for a source since the very beginning, i.e. mid-September. It is disappointing to see that you portray Wikipedia's basic requirements as something nefarious and dishonest. When such source was presented to you, you claim it is invalid, because it's just one source. No, that's not the issue. The source is written by a person called Mykolas Varnas, whose credentials are unknown, so far. The statements made by this person are not based on any sources and are, frankly, speculations. There was a certain Mykolas Varnas from 1887 to 1972, but he is definitely not the one writing articles for a Lithuanian newspaper, i.e. Lietuvos žinios.

And you try to undermine it for some unknown reason. It's unfortunate, that you chose to assume "some unknown reason" to explain me wanting that articles follow Wikipedia's guidelines and be well-sourced. It's hard to believe you argue in a good faith Considering how long you and I have been "discussing" and I have to re-state the same thing over and over again, I am hard-pressed to believe that you are arguing in good faith, especially after your revert of self-evident facts on the article on Antanas Mackevičius in the Polish wiki - here is the diff. I am surprised that you would say I am acting in bad faith if my messages include statements like: As for his brother Teofil, I agree that it is a very interesting addition to the article and would be welcome. or As an act of reciprocity, I can also point you to an interesting quote.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:43, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

The way you act it's possible to undermine every source, the article was published in "Lietuvos žinios" which is trustworthy enough. I reverted your edit on Polish wiki because you didn't cite any source, and I can cite multiple sources that describe him as Polish. So you are arguing now against the points you yourself have made Marcelus (talk) 14:09, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

You are clearly misrepresenting the situation. article was published in "Lietuvos žinios" which is trustworthy enough. you are only saying that because it is in your favour. Your standards of trustworthiness don't say much considering that you have pointed me to a page without a single source and said that "this Wikipage that explains it properly".

You talk about how there are sources backing you up, but under closer inspection, your claims are unfounded. you didn't cite any source - practically always on Wikipedia, there is no need to cite a source for the statements in the first line: Lucjan Żeligowski states he is Polish without any sources. Adam Mickiewicz states he is Polish without any inline sources. Józef Piłsudski states he is Polish without any inline sources. Edward Rydz-Śmigły states he is Polish without any inline sources. I am not arguing against what I have previously said, but you are arguing against already extant precedents on Wikipedia. In fact, by your definition of "political sympathies means a certain ethnicity", then Antanas Mackevičius is an undoubted Lithuanian. Your inconsistency is staggering. --Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I always cite a source if I am making a change in an exisiting article. You were the one making a change, quite a substantial one, and you didn't cite any sources, that's why I reverted your edit. My definition isn't as you said "political sympathies means a certain ethnicity"; what I am arguing since the begining is that (and this applies to both Žukauskas and Mackiewicz) if they grew up in a Polish home and/or Polish was their first language it's proper to point out that their origins were in fact Polish. Also Mackiewicz political views aren't that simple if you actually read his testimoniesMarcelus (talk) 14:55, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I always cite a source if I am making a change in an exisiting article - Verifiably false, just look at this edit on the article about Silvestras Žukauskas. No reference visible, in this precise case when, in your words, making a change, quite a substantial one. As for if they grew up in a Polish home and/or Polish was their first language it's proper to point out that their origins were in fact Polish, your lack of awareness about this region's context is concerning, as Polonization is in no way proof of Polish origins. It seems as though most of the things I say, even those with regards to precedents in Wikipedia, you simply ignore. Very unwikipedian behaviour, in addition to your WP:OR practices. --Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:46, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus

If you go back in the edit history you will see when I first added information about his Polish origins I was also adding a lot more informations about him, all of them sourced, and the information about his Polish origins were well described in the article. Your lack of awareness about this region's context is concerning, as Polonization is in no way proof of Polish origins - this is prime example of were you are wrong, according to your logic ethinicity/national identity for you is a matter of biology. I don't know if Žukauskas predecessors were pureblooded Lithuanians, maybe they were and maybe at some point his family was in fact Polonised. But it doesn't change the fact that he grew up in a Polish-speaking home of Polish culture. He later declared hismelf as Lithuanian, but it doesn't change a fact that his origins were Polish Marcelus (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, I asked, here is one more view on the matter --> [2] - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

User talk:GizzyCatBella Can you restore the lead now? I think it serve the purpose here, the article is long and it would be good if basic information were included in the lead Marcelus (talk) 16:56, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella🍁 (...) to place it in the lead is unwarranted, considering that e.g. the articles on Józef Piłsudski, Lucjan Żeligowski and Adam Mickiewicz do not mention their origins, whatever they may be. (Me being able to copy paste my previous answers in response to Marcelus really demonstrates him not listening to what is said to him).--Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:08, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Cukrakalnis You seem obsessed. I am talking about the lead, not about the small part that mention his Polish origins Marcelus (talk) 17:25, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Marcelus, I was also talking about the lead. Didn't you see the to place it in the lead is unwarranted? As for the rest of the lead, it is far too long to keep it as such.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:40, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Following the reasoning that Polish-speaking home of Polish culture somehow means that someone is Polish, means that growing up in a French-speaking home of French culture would make someone French, but that is not the case, because then most of the 18th-century and early 19th-century European nobility is suddenly French. No serious researchers make such judgments. As such a view falls apart under closer examination, it is unreasonable to apply it to anyone.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Why don’t you two fellows User:Cukrakalnis and User:Marcelus meet halfway and rebuild some of the lead info together? But not as it was previously, as it was too long-drawn. See section below (New Lead proposal) - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:55, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with how the lead looks right now Marcelus (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

New lead proposal

Follow Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section (Post draft below) GizzyCatBella🍁 18:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

This is my proposal:

Silvestras Žukauskas (Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army, where he distinguished himself during World War I, rising to the rank of divisional commander, and later in the Lithuanian Army, whose Chief Commander he was three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928.

Žukauskas joined the Imperial Russian Army in 1881, studying in the Vilnius Military School from 1883 to 1887, reaching the rank of polkovnik in 1913. When World War I started, he commanded the new 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment, fighting at its head in present-day Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. He was demobilized in February 1918, when Germans captured most of the 1st Infantry Division which he commanded.

In early 1919, as Chief of the General Staff of the newly recreated Lithuanian Army, he pushed the invading Soviet forces out of Lithuania by the end of August 1919 with a successful offensive. However, he was dismissed from command as the Polish coup d'état attempt's organizers planned to make him a military dictator. Although Žukauskas was likely unaware about this, he was known as a Polish sympathizer, speaking Polish, and generally faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 after communist-inspired soldier's mutiny in Kaunas and in October 1920 following the Lithuanian defeat in the Battle of Sejny. He commanded Lithuanian forces fighting against Żeligowski's Mutiny in Autumn 1920. He is reputed as a key figure in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. He resigned from active military duty in June 1921, being brought back from retirement in June 1923 as the Lithuanian Army's commander until January 1928.

References

I am open to suggestions on what to change and remove.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella🍁 and Marcelus, do you think this version is alright?--Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Cukrakalnis[[User:GizzyCatBella it's all right, but a couple corrections. I would mention that he ended his servie in Russian army as major general. And one sentence about his activities after retirement would be great. Also the link to Lituano-Slavica Posnaniensia isn't working, plus there is mention of which volume we are reffering to Marcelus (talk) 20:25, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus Great suggestions, I'll go and implement them.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:28, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

So:

Silvestras Žukauskas (Polish: Sylwester Żukowski, Russian: Сильвестр Константинович Жуковский, romanized: Silvester Konstantinovich Zhukovsky; 31 December 1860 – 26 November 1937) was a Lithuanian General, first in the Imperial Russian Army, where he distinguished himself during World War I, rising to the rank of major general and ending the war as divisional commander, and later in the Lithuanian Army, whose Chief Commander he was three times: May–September 1919, February–June 1920, and June 1923 to January 1928.

Žukauskas joined the Imperial Russian Army in 1881, studying in the Vilnius Military School from 1883 to 1887, reaching the rank of polkovnik in 1913. When World War I started, he commanded the new 314th Novooskolsk Infantry Regiment, fighting at its head in present-day Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. He was demobilized in February 1918, when Germans captured most of the 1st Infantry Division which he commanded.

In early 1919, as Chief of the General Staff of the newly recreated Lithuanian Army, he pushed the invading Soviet forces out of Lithuania by the end of August 1919 with a successful offensive. However, he was dismissed from command as the Polish coup d'état attempt's organizers planned to make him a military dictator. Although Žukauskas was likely unaware about this, he was known as a Polish sympathizer, speaking Polish, and generally faced resistance from younger Lithuanian officers. These tensions forced him out of the command twice more, but he was brought back in February 1920 after communist-inspired soldier's mutiny in Kaunas and in October 1920 following the Lithuanian defeat in the Battle of Sejny. He commanded Lithuanian forces fighting against Żeligowski's Mutiny in Autumn 1920. He is reputed as a key figure in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence. He resigned from active military duty in June 1921, being brought back from retirement in June 1923 as the Lithuanian Army's commander until January 1928.

In 1927, on the 40 year anniversary of Žukauskas becoming an officer, the government gifted him the Davalgonys estate near Ramučiai, which was frequently visited by Lithuania's president Antanas Smetona and his wife. During this final retirement, Žukauskas became a founder of Amlit and its nominal manager. The company built bicycles, cars, buses and car garages.

References

I've added the first two suggestions. I'll find something for Lituano-Slavica Posnaniensia.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

So, for Lituano-Slavica Posnaniensia, I fixed the reference and link in the article (added the volume, etc.) in this diff. This is the relevant quote: Głównodowodzący armią litewską gen. Silvestras Žukauskas, mówiący po polsku i przejawiający profrancuskie sympatie, był niechętny Anglikom,.... I went the extra mile and put in all the accents :) --Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)