Talk:Simón Bolívar/Archive 3
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| Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
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- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120330202720/http://cohaforum.org/2011/08/11/bolivar-and-chavez-a-worthy-comparison/ to http://cohaforum.org/2011/08/11/bolivar-and-chavez-a-worthy-comparison/
- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100720024343/http://www.msnbc.msn.com:80/id/38280282/ns/world_news-americas to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38280282/ns/world_news-americas/
- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160102061556/http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html to http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html
- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160102061556/http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html to http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html
- Attempted to fix sourcing for http://calodges.org/ncrl/bolivar.html
- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150620121329/http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100724/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_chave_s_obsession to http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100724/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_chave_s_obsession
- Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090712035045/http://www.glrbv.org.ve:80/Proceres%20Masones/Simon%20Bolivar.htm to http://www.glrbv.org.ve/Proceres%20Masones/Simon%20Bolivar.htm
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Assessment comment
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Simón Bolívar/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
| needs better referencing plange 04:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 06:15, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
"“Bolívar's dream was freedom for all races"?
“Bolívar's dream was freedom for all races in the Americas. He not only liberated the slaves of African origin, but also promoted social inclusion for the indigenous populations.”
This is a very rosy interpretation of events, to put it mildly. Helg (2003) wrote a rather comprehensive article detailing his paranoia over an impending “race war,” noting that “fear of people of African descent … dominated Bolívar’s thinking” (p. 448). Indeed, “as early as 1817, Bolívar had the upper-class pardo [mulatto] Manuel Piar executed for challenging his supremacy and allegedly mobilising blacks against whites” (p. 451). She quotes from his letters to Santander in which he relays fears of a pardocracia, at which point “those who will escape with their white faces will be very lucky” (p. 455). This fear ultimately led the execution of the pardo admiral José Padilla in 1828.
Additionally, she pointed out that “Bolívar had welcomed Haitian money, arms and ammunitions to revive the struggle for independence, in return for the abolition of slavery in the territories he would liberate. However, he only partially fulfilled his promise, as the 1821 manumission law did not free the slaves, but only the children of slave mothers born after 1821.”(p.449).
Those two misleading (fictive?) sentences are indicative of why i find myself agreeing with the previous user who asserted that this article reads more like a hagiography.
External links modified
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I have just modified 5 external links on Simón Bolívar. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38280282/ns/world_news-americas/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090308234525/http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html to http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/biografias_familia_sb.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150904060539/https://www.bolivar.ula.ve/cgi-win/be_alex.exe?Acceso=T011900001679%2F49&Nombrebd=BOLIVAR&Sesion=268435544 to http://www.bolivar.ula.ve/cgi-win/be_alex.exe?Acceso=T011900001679%2F49&Nombrebd=BOLIVAR&Sesion=268435544
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.glrbv.org.ve/Proceres%20Masones/Simon%20Bolivar.htm
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External links modified
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More
I'm curious...what's the source that states that, in most recent research, AIDS would be Bolivar's cause of death? Does anyone know more about this? I've read that it's been long speculated that he may have died due to any of a number of sexually transmitted diseases, due to his womanizing habits, but speculation isn't research.... Juancarlos2004 20:05, 19 December 2004 (UTC)
Images
Some of the images in wikimedia commons used in Spanish version of article but still not used in English version:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpbradbury (talk • contribs) 11:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Sentence I removed, but could be put back in, with revision
The Family History section contained a confusing and unhelpful sentence. Here it is, in italics:
- The most important of these estates was a sugar plantation with an encomienda that provided the labor needed to run the estate.[5] In later centuries, slave and free black labor would have replaced most of the encomienda labor. Another portion of Bolívar wealth came from the silver, gold, and more importantly, copper mines in Venezuela.
Is this supposed to mean "In later centuries, slave and free black labor replaced most of the encomienda labor."? Or is it just a strange side observation describing how the estate would have been operated... if it had established hundreds of years later? Regardless, I removed it. If some knows that the native american labor actually was replaced with black labor, please add this sentence back in, revised as necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kronn8 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
President of Venezuela?
He's linked to the President of Venezuela article, and listed there. But none of the references there support this. There are no references (that I can see) at President of Bolivia or President of Peru either. Any truth to these labels? InedibleHulk (talk) 16:30, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Statue in Ankara?
While adding citations to the Monuments and physical legacy section, I was unable to find any sort of reference, no matter how fleeting, to a statue of Simon Bolivar in Ankara. If anyone has a reference for that, they should add it. Otherwise, it should be removed, as it might have been added by mistake.
Protect page?
Can we get an admin to protect this page? It seems to be vandalized every week.--Akrasia25 (talk) 21:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC) No, you will not.
Bolívar's affairs and lovers
Hello everyone.
I recognize the importance of writing in English well. But we have to stay focused on facts.
As far as I check, this section is under vandalism: Bolívar's affairs and lovers
First of all, the paragraph that explains the forgeries of several love letters between Bolívar and Manuela was badly modified. The original reference article says that Dietrich, Saá and the book published by El perro y la rana shows fake documents. Whoever edited this (not me) distorted the source and wrote that those authors (and the publishing house) debunk fake documents, but the debunder is R.J.Lovera De-Sola.
Second, read references prior to reverting anything. I put a reference to Victor von Hagen, a very well known historian who wrote a biography of Manuela Sáenz. His book can be compared with the biography written by Alfonso Rumazo González. Their description of Manuela is quite similar, so they are both good sources of information.
Third, the fact that almost all Manuela's letters were destroyed after her death was real. This explains the scarcity of love letters between her and Bolívar, and why some irresponsible authors publish fake documents as real.
It is OK to revert changes if there are valid reasons to do so. But please, read sources first and compare information. Do not revert editions without any explanation and any documents or sources to support your decision.
Finally, I suggest to protect this article.
Best,
Ylmer (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2019 (UTC)Ylmer
“El Libertador” isn’t just Bolívar’s colloquial nickname, it’s his actual title!
I’m not entirely sure how to incorporate this into the lead section, but El Libertador is not only how Bolívar is referred to colloquially by Latin Americans, it was the official title granted to him in his lifetime: Libertador Simón Bolívar, just like General George Washington or President Name-Your-President. It’d be hard to overstate the veneration Bolívar was accorded in his lifetime — the lede could be written to better reflect that. Maybe something like “He is most often referred to colloquially as ‘The Liberator,’ an honorary title accorded to him by Mérida’s town hall in 1813 and ratified in Caracas that same year.” Thoughts?
-Danopticon (talk) 11:08, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
There are no other libertador in america latina — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.107.106.106 (talk) 12:30, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Battles query
Bolívar fought 472 battles - realy? It is imposible, this is some error 190.131.198.42 (talk) 01:31, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
- The citation supports it. The book can be found here, p. 47: https://books.google.com/books?id=KeY7DwAAQBAJ Outriggr (talk) 08:02, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
- He lived ca 17000 days (47*365). 472 battles is ca one battle in 36 days, including his childhood. It is not possible before the invention of the online gaming.
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Why is Karl Marx's opinion of Bolivar referenced?
I'm sure many people have published opinions on Bolivar, but I don't see anything within the section on Marx's published opinions of Bolivar to indicate why they might be particularly relevant or useful. Accordingly, I'm not sure why this is included in the article. My recommendation would be to remove it on that basis.
Anguselus (talk) 14:09, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I'd have to agree. I don't see why Karl Marx's opinion of Simon Bolivar is relevant. He is not known for being a scholar or commentator of note on the Wars of Liberation in South America or Simon Bolivar. The 13th 4postle (talk) 01:57, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- I took it out. The Opinion section in general is a bit strange and borders on primary source, the other opinion also comes off as being quite gossipy. Seems best to me that the article sticks with secondary and tertiary sources. The Justinian and Belisarius pages aren't plastered with Procopius opinion, and his writings are used fleetingly because well, his histories are primary source, and biased, which is why wiki stays away from that. Alcibiades979 (talk) 22:15, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
- Also I'm cognizant that Marx' opinion of Bolivar is important for other things, specifically as the dictatorship of Maduro and Chavez and their Bolivarian Revolution, but that warrants its own page, which it has. Alcibiades979 (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
@Alcibiades979: Seeing that this is important to Venezuelan history, which article do you suggest? I was going to place this back do to its notablity and importance in recent history, but would like to respect you opinion as well.----ZiaLater (talk) 13:53, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Marx's opinion is not warranted or is it needed. His opinion is just that his opinion, and in reality historically (outside Left Wing academia) Marx himself is not held in high regard because of his hypocritical life style and his failed, murderous and unworkable economic and political ideology. In the revolutionary history of Latin America the opinion of a rich European is not needed. His remarks need to be deleted and or replaced with more contemporary view of those who actually knew Bolivar. I am going to delete it because it does not have any connection to the actual article or the subsection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.3.17.38 (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- One can certainly criticize Marx's article on Bolívar; even Soviet historians did so. But to argue Marx's views aren't "needed" because he was a "rich European" (which isn't even accurate; Marx at the time was in poverty and getting paid to write for the New American Cyclopædia) is silly. Nor does one have to support Marx's lifestyle or "economic and political ideology" to regard his article as noteworthy. Having said that, I don't think Marx's article should necessarily be used as a source for this article, and is more proper for either a section or separate article on how authors and historians have evaluated Bolívar over the centuries. --Ismail (talk) 00:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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