Talk:Sine Kerr

POV

Using terms such as "passionate about agriculture" (btw lifted verbatim from her website, another no-no), "female leader and business woman in the field of agriculture", "Sine's passion and interest extends", etc. are all clearly pov. I suggest you read WP:NPOV, and WP:PEACOCK. In addition, almost all the sources you use are primary sources. See WP:PRIMARY. While these can be used, they can only be used in a limited way. For instance, take your last sentence, "Sine is also the chair on the AZ Department of Agriculture’s Food and Agriculture Policy Advisory Council which works to resolve the issues of food insecurity in Arizona." There is nothing wrong with the first part of the sentence, and using a primary source to show it's true is perfectly all right, but adding "which works to resolve the issues of food insecurity in Arizona" is a POV addition, since it is written to put the Council in a good light. The facts you added are perfectly fine. It's the commentary which makes it POV. Hope this helps. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:45, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, you appear to have uploaded a copyrighted photo onto Commons. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:47, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Edits

Hello, thank you for your feedback and criticism. I just found out about the talk page which you kept referring to, I had no idea what you meant and I kept visiting your own talk page. I apologize for the misunderstanding as I am a novice at Wikipedia Editing. I read your opinions and I want to reach an understanding on this page as I believe much of what I wrote (the POV writing aside) was relevant, useful, and important information. I have removed the photo from my edits. I do understand your opinion on the POV vocabulary terms used, and I fixed my mistakes in the later edits which you undone. (All editing that I refer to in this Is regarding my latest or final edit the one that was +3,401)

Firstly, in the general section of the article which briefly describes Sine Kerr I added this, "Sine is currently running for for election for the Arizona State Legislature seat representing the 13th legislative district against her Democratic Party United States opponent, Michelle Harris.[2] Kerr won the primary on August 28, 2018 and is currently in the general election, which is set to take place on November 6, 2018.[3] This is relevant and current updated information none of it is biased and is purely factual, furthermore each sentence is cited. I believe it should be included for the time being until the election is concluded, then it of course should be updated.

Secondly, I added a "Early & Personal Life" subdivision into the article which I believe should remain there as it is factual and relevant to the subject, Sine Kerr. "Sine Kerr moved to Buckeye, Arizona when she was 3 years old with her father, a US Army veteran, along with the rest of her family.[4] Kerr went on to marry her high school sweetheart named Bill at 19 years old, and had one son as well as three daughters.[5] Kerr's four married children have given her ten grandchildren with one on the way.[6] Sine and Bill started their business, a dairy farm, in 1980.[7] Since starting their farm with only 15 cows, today they have amassed 1,100 milk cows and 800 replacement heifers.[8]" In this edit none of the writing is biased or written from POV this is all as I said factual and relevant to the subject. Furthermore, all writing here is cited. While I understand your point on the primary sources issue, you must understand this is a smaller scale local candidate so nearly all of the information that there is out there about Sine Kerr comes from herself personally, especially the information about her "Early & Personal Life". This section to the article "Early & Personal Life" adds to what is currently a stub.

Lastly, I added a "Public Service & Community Involvement' subdivision. This is the one which you seem you have highlighted specific POV writing in. I believe that the inclusion of such a subdivision in the article is necessary and appropriate. Although I will try to remove some of what you believe to be POV writing, in this new revised version: "Sine is a businesswoman and farmer, working in the field of agriculture.[9] As a female farmer and business woman in the field of agriculture, Sine finds herself on Arizona Farm Bureau's Board of Directors and is currently serving her first term as the Women's Leadership Chair.[10] Sine has been an advocate for issues that affect Arizona ranchers and farmers.[11] Sine's involvement extends past agriculture to veteran issues, child and family matters, and education.[12] Sine Kerr is also an A rated NRA endorsed candidate.[13] Further local community and and state involvement of Sine include her service on the Buckeye Valley Chamber of Commerce and appointment to the Maricopa County Air Quality Hearing Board.[14] Sine is also the chair on the AZ Department of Agriculture’s Food and Agriculture Policy Advisory Council.[15]"

Please let me know what you think about what I have written and let me know clearly what you would have no problem with including in the page. Also feel free to make edits to the proposed writing and provide me with input. I genuinely would like to reach an understanding between you and me as I really would like to expand on this stub. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiMinuteman (talk • contribs) 20:21, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

It's your citations. Five of your proposed references are to the Sine Kerr campaign website. Six are to her Arizona State Legislature Senate Member Profile, which is very likely information she provided. What a person or a person's organization says about themselves are not valid citation sources. It is very likely that what Sine Kerr says about herself is true, but in does not hold water in Wikipedialand. Also, please sign your comments on Talk and Teahouse pages by typing four of ~. David notMD (talk) 00:10, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Lastly, but important, do you have any personal connection, unpaid or paid, to Sine Kerr? These must be stated on your User page. David notMD (talk) 00:28, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for jumping in, David notMD, those are precisely the correct points. I would also add that this is a bio of a living person, and therefore receives an even higher degree of scrutiny. And WikiMinuteman, sorry about the miscommunication about the talkpage issue. Finally, WP intends to be an encyclopedia, so be careful of informal writing, plagiarism and redundancy. Informal writing is the use of a person's first name, for example. After stating the first name in the lead, you should only refer to her as Kerr. While there is no outright plagiarism, there is a definite issues of close paraphrasing which would need to be addressed. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:44, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the input onel5969. To address the problem with using the same primary sources, when speaking about an individuals personal life, especially a lesser known individual such as Sine Kerr, but really anyone in general, when referring to these personal life facts and specific details of her in the "Early & Personal Life" subdivision which I wish to add, it is very hard and nearly impossible to obtain the biography information from anyone but the primary source, in fact I would go as far as questioning these personal life details if they had come from anyone but the primary source who knows it best.

As far as the other information goes, the sourcing absolutely can be different. Although once again I would like to make it clear that this is indeed a lesser known individual who receives a smaller amount of media coverage or publication.

I would like to add the "Early & Personal Life" subdivision which is sourced from both her campaign website and Arizona State Legislature website. This is a very small section composed of 5 sentences which are all relevant to the subject and are primarily personal details. The inclusion of this can be discussed further.

Although I certainly will be adding to the general section of the article which briefly describes Sine Kerr this, "Sine is currently running for for election for the Arizona State Legislature seat representing the 13th legislative district against her Democratic Party United States opponent, Michelle Harris.[2] Kerr won the primary on August 28, 2018 and is currently in the general election, which is set to take place on November 6, 2018.[3] This is relevant and current updated information none of it is biased and is purely factual. Furthermore, each sentence will be cited both citations leading to separate credible website one being "votesmart" and the other "ballotpedia". This will be included for the time being until the election is concluded, then it of course will be updated. WikiMinuteman (talk) 17:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi. There's nothing wrong with using votesmart and ballotpedia, so those are okay. For the personal section however, if all you have is from primary sources, leave it out. This isn't US magazine. "Lesser known" equates to non-notable on Wikipedia. If it can't be sourced, you can't include it. Hope this helps.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

onel5969, I would consider the senate member profile to be credible information, would you? I don't mean as using this entirely and relying on this purely to cite everything, I am suggesting using it only to cite certain things. After all, this is a .gov official and legitimate website and all that is posted on it is deemed truthful public information that is released. What are your thoughts? Thanks! WikiMinuteman (talk) 20:27, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

It depends. Many times the info on those sites is supplied by the politician, without any editorial oversight. I would only use it on a very limited basis. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:13, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I concur - legislature website and her campaign website not appropriate. Again, all content there may be true, but true does not make those sites independent from the person being described. David notMD (talk) 21:46, 22 October 2018 (UTC)