Talk:Singing

"Clean vocals"

"Clean vocals" redirects to this article, yet the word "clean" doesn't even appear in the article. What does "clean vocals" mean? Pretty much what it sounds like?

--Ben Culture (talk) 10:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed the same thing, getting redirected here hoping for more information about "Clean vocals", which is a term used when discussing post-hardcore music to specify singing that is neither screaming nor death growling, all three of which can appear in post-hardcore songs.

Perhaps "Clean vocals" could redirect to screaming instead, because that article does at least mention clean vocals. 74.235.210.250 (talk) 23:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

the term clean is meant to exist in relation to distorted / gritty / raspy vocals, which this article also, sadly, makes no mention of. in many styles of popular music, but especially in blues / rock / metal, vocal distortion is the norm, so "clean" is used to differentiate. the fact that wikipedia splits this topic into two separate articles, "singing" and "screaming" is really weird and definitely demonstrates not only a western bias, but a specifically classical bias. it's also really problematic pedagogically because it implies some sort of binary that doesn't exist. distortion is a spectrum, from largely clean singing with just a little texture all the way to fully atonal "pitchless" screams. singers like michael jackson fluidly blended techniques and would often switch between distorted and clean phonation several times in a single line, picking just a word or two to distort for emphasis, for example. all this nuance is lost here. 67.81.13.99 (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Cool Kenzaonogoru (talk) 09:56, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Seven years after this discussion was made, still goes unresolved. "Clean vocals" still redirects here. Yet as mentioned, nothing about "clean" is mentioned in the article. 129.78.56.145 (talk) 02:50, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Western bias?

I came to this article hoping to find out a bit about, say, an anthropological history of singing, how it developed in different cultures, how cultures around the world engage in it and perform it - and get a really Western, Americanised perspective starting from highly Westernised vocal pedagogy discussion and culminating in American Idol. I know, {{sofixit}}, but I'm here to learn, not to edit, and I'm surprised no one's commented on this already... 155.143.163.20 (talk) 16:59, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I see that it was brought up once and ignored. 155.143.163.20 (talk) 17:01, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Richard Miller addresses the topic in a minor way in this book which was published in 2011. He pointed out that there is a need for a lot more scholarship in this area, and that studies and publications on non-western singing in an depth and serious way have not yet been done. That's not to say that there isn't valuable content out there (certainly a lot of more generalized scholarship by ethnomusicologists has been done that is pertinent), but that part of the bias in this article is simply a reflection on the limited amount of resources available and the specialized knowledge of this topic. Best.4meter4 (talk) 06:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Origin and History of Singing

This article has a very narrow focus. It would be good if it could cover more cultures, and discuss the origin and history of singing.Ordinary Person (talk) 13:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree, but sourcing is an issue for cultures outside of the Western world. Please see my comments above in the topic 'Western Bias?". Best.4meter4 (talk) 03:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Singing

Category:Singing has been nominated for recategorizing. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page.
CN1 (talk) 15:55, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Images in article

An editor has recently been very persistent in adding an image of a playback singer to the article. I regard the image as unhelpful, un-encyclopaedic and of poor quality. In my view this image adds nothing to the value of the article. I have twice requested in edit summaries that the question of whether to include the image should be discussed here as per WP:BRD. The editor has declined. I have therefore brought the discussion here and would welcome the views of others.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   18:29, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

A playback singer is actually of relevance here as in most regions playback singing is the final destination of every singer. Image of the singer has a relevance according to MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE as the singer is representing south asia and I am going to add reliable citations for this. Umair Aj (talk) 18:38, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

While the topic may or may not be important (n.b. it's not even referenced in the article), it's still true that (a) that particular image is of poor quality; and (b) three stacked pictures at the top is too many. Maybe this picture could go lower down, or (preferably) on the playback singer article, which doesn't have an image at all.

I would note, however, that the two other pictures accompanying the lede are both Americans; we should seek for a little more diversity. But this low-quality image of a Pakistani isn't a good choice. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:19, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you regarding diversity because other two pictures are of American singers. As far as poor quality of the picture is concerned, soon I am going to upload a better quality picture of the singer till the time it would suffice. Umair Aj (talk) 19:15, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Good. In the meantime I hope other editors will weigh in on the significance of playback singer, which frankly I'd never heard of before this, and hasn't even been referenced in the article heretofore. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Nice Kenzaonogoru (talk) 09:56, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

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Biased removal of some images

I have noticed that an editor has removed sourced information as well as images of some renowned singers of vital importance in the popular music. They have influenced continents because of their versatility and range. I am going to restore couple of images who are properly sourced. Please do not remove the sourced images without developing a proper consensus. -Umair Aj (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

@Umair Aj: I don't think that that the singers whose images you uploaded have a worldwide impact, I cannot understand what those singers whose images you uploaded have connection with the subject ,For your information the article of singing also redirects to vocals, what those popular singers of their respected nations are been placed in an article like art of singing which is a subject based upon the facts of singing, it's history and it's context . No need of those images it's only promotion. Anoptimistix (talk) 11:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh dear, you don't seem to understand. Images of the singers in the article are of vital importance in popular music. For the instance, Billie Holiday, was an American jazz musician and singer-songwriter who has influenced the whole generation of singers from Alvis Presley to Back Street Boys and this information is verified. Likewise Ahmed Rushdi has influenced complete south asian singers including Kishore Kumar, Sonu Nigam, Runa Laila to name a few. Reliable citations are mentioned. Please do not reflect your personal likes/dislike and opinions in your editing.-Umair Aj (talk)

For what little it may be worth, I removed the same image in September 2016 because it did not seem to me to add any encyclopaedic value. It was of poor quality and it wasn't positioned anywhere near any relevant text. I.e it wasn't illustrating anything. This was not a "biased" decision and nor is the current removal of the same image. The image is not appropriate and is not relevant.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   15:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

No this is not the case. You are just distorting the facts. The image had a relevance but the only issue was it was of not good quality. But we already resolved the issue if you read the discussion took place in 2016 i.e. we must have a name from Aisa also to diversify it. But here the issue is different, this editor is also removing other images and he has removed a few. So if you really want to remove all the images, then give a solid/valid reason and go a head with this. But you can't just keep an image because you have a liking for it and remove the other. Either you keep it this way or remove all the images after a valid reasoning.-Umair Aj (talk) 21:11, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion, images of singers should only be added to this article if they clearly illustrate the art of singing in performance style, posture, body language, facial expression etc., but not if the main objectives are to promote the singers personally. You should almost be able to hear them singing, from the images. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Images for lead

@ScrapIronIV: Would you please elaborate why these particular images are suitable in lead? I think if one wants to include images there, then they should be of such famous persons that after seeing them anybody will know they are singers.

There is one more option, like SergeWoodzing said "You should almost be able to hear them singing, from the images." I say include photos of non celebrity persons singing. Now kindly do not add back the images, unless a consensus is achieved here. Thanks.

Also, you reverted my edit, the edit summary was "Removed photo of both the singers. The article is not about the human singers, or human created "music". It is about the natural phenomenon singing. If you think my edit was inappropriate, then kindly discuss it on this talkpage, and ping me there.)". —usernamekiran(talk) 13:53, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Please note that "singer" does redirect here, and these are depictions of singers performing the act of singing. Images of humans performing the act of singing is entirely appropriate for the article. The examples presented are multi-cultural, and are fair representatives of the art. I restored the images per WP:BRD. Scr★pIron^IV 14:02, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the redirect ScrapIron the 5th, I didnt know that. In that case, I agree with you on the point of photos of singers performing the act of singing being appropriate in the article. But I still believe we should include some trademark singer like Shakira, Michael Jackson, or Pitbull or PSY of gangnam style. So that even if a non English reader comes to the page, he should be like "oh look that is the baldy singer, and the gangnam style guy, this article must be about music, or singers." Or to avoid claims for being partial to any particular coutry or region (the section above), I think we should add images of civilian individuals (non-celebrities in this context) performing the act of singing. I am not sure if Rushdi's photo proves he is singing. Someone (non-english) might say, "oh look, someone is reading".

PS: Thanks for a logical conversation too. :) —usernamekiran(talk) 19:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

The selections you are offering are subjective, as would any such list be. I would not know Shakira, PSY, or Pitbull; and Billie Holiday is instantly recognizable to me. I had never heard of Ahmed Rushdi - but he may be as recognizable to someone from his region as Holiday is to me, or Shakira is to you. One cannot make everyone happy. As it stands, other editors made the decisions that led to these two being chosen, and as there is not reason based in policy to remove them, then they should not be summarily removed. Scr★pIron^IV 20:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

@ScrapIronIV: they were not selection, but examples. Shakira is one of the most well known singer, and so is PSY (even though just for one song). They are most recognised artists along with M. Jackson, and Ricky Martin. And yes, that was my point too. We can not add singers from all the regions. I am from India, and an avid listner of songs from 50's, 70's, and 80's; and yet I had never even heard Rushdi's name. I will not go into internation regions, but within India, there is a region South India. A couple of states from this region understand only English, and their regional langauge (not even the national langauge Hindi), so they are familiar with only the regional language singers, as extremely few Hindi singers also sing in Tamil language, or Malayalam language. And based on population, South India is larger than a lot of countries in the world.

• Thats why I think the second option would be indisputable here: and photos of normal, non celebrity singers. Such persons who dont even have their name mentioned in the summary section of coomons. All we need is a few photos to cover all the regions/religions/races. —usernamekiran(talk) 13:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I am not averse to adding more photos to the article, perhaps one per major section. I would not mind replacing Ahmed Rushdi, as the photo is low quality and oddly blue. Certainly at the very least it should be resized to a smaller presentation. My main concern was the blanket removal of the only images in the lede. I would like to see more high quality images in this article. Scr★pIron^IV 13:48, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

@ScrapIronIV: Yes, I agree on more images, and on high quality images. But now I think we should avoid celebrities, and professional singers completely, to avoid the claims of being biased. We need images similar to File:Sophia Abrahão in tour nel 2016.png, where we can "hear" the unknown person singing. —usernamekiran(talk) 19:18, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I would say that is a good candidate to replace Rushdi. And perhaps this one under the competitions section? File:CNCO 250.jpg Scr★pIron^IV 19:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

@ScrapIronIV: I agree. But we should keep finding for better pictures. We can go with these images for now. :) —usernamekiran(talk) 07:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Removing promotional images. We already discussed this issue. No promotional image of any singer should be included because then every one will add his/her favorite singer.-Umair Aj (talk) 09:40, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Umair Aj: where did "we" agree to that? I am also not sure what "that" is. On side note, the images are not promotional at all. —usernamekiran(talk) 10:57, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Good Kenzaonogoru (talk) 09:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

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Rj Siddharth Thakur

Rj Siddharth Thakur is a professional Singer and Wrestler Rjsiddharth (talk) 10:36, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Competence is required. Spam is banned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 11:47, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

New photo

A photo of an unknown woman singing, talking, lip-synching, dancing, miming or modelling was recently added to the top of the article (over Piaf) by the photographer. I removed it because it is not notable, relevant or even clearly evidenced as authentic singing. The photographer has reintstated it. I will remove it again unless someone can show us that it is appropriate here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:09, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Samer Hikmat

Samer Hikmat is an amazing singer that is very special. many teacher love this student. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truestuisright (talk • contribs) 17:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Posture

Ray Charles and Elton John are well known singers. How does their posture fit in with what is mentioned in the article? What does sitting do mechanically that hinders singing?Trauha (talk) 16:13, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Top image

The article is about singing, not singers. If we are to have a photo at the top of a singer, I think it should be one who is deceased or at least no longer personally in the business. Adding a singer who is currently competing for attention & promotion to the top of this article is not the way to go. I will be reinstating Piaf again (for the 3rd or 4th time) unless someone disagrees convincingly. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

My opinion is that the best image should be used to complement the article - whoever is featured in the image is irrelevant. Posting an image of a deceased or retired singer is still technically promotion - music continues to be sold regardless of whether a singer is active, retired or deceased. The current lead image is a recent image, it is a colourised photo, the subject is facing the camera and their act of singing is very clear and visible. I have no issues in maintaining the current lead image.--Alza08 (talk) 11:39, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

"I have no issues in maintaining the current lead image." Does that mean that you do not have a conflict of interest here? Or that you have no issue with (you do not object to) keeping a photo that you added yourself? Of course, the work of deceased artists still makes money, but there is hardly any promotional marketing for them in competition with current living and popular and competitive singers. This article is not for promotion of any such singer, neither in text nor image, especially not at the top. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I do not have a conflict of interest, and I have no issue with maintaining the current lead photo. I agree that the article is not for the promotion of any singer. I changed the lead image because I saw the new image as better conveying the subject matter, per the reasons I have previously provided.--Alza08 (talk) 14:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Still very confusing. You "have no issue with maintaining the current lead photo"? You're the one who added it, aren't you? Do you or do you not know Ellie Goulding and/or Guy Sebastian (next talk section) personally? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

As I've said, I have no issue with maintaining the current lead photo. I do not know Ellie Goulding or Guy Sebastian personally; I added their images into the article because I saw them as the best images to illustrate key points within the article, for the reasons I have already previously provided.--Alza08 (talk) 04:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

The questions here are:

1. how do we select one singer currently in competition for promotion with other current singers, to illustrate this article at the top?
2. is it undue promotion to add such a selected photo?
3. should we remove a top image of Edith Piaf which has been stable for years?
4. how many times will the top image be replaced by the favorite currently active singers of various Wikipedians?

--SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:24, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

As I have stated, the lead image should be the best available image - whoever is featured in the image is irrelevant and should not be a consideration. Adding the best available image to an article is not promotional - it is simply a matter of quality and suitability. The current image is superior to the previous image for the reasons I have previously provided, hence why it replaced the previous image.--Alza08 (talk) 16:42, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

The article is about singing, not female professional singers of the 20th or 21st century. Therefore the question is not: which professional singer performing on a stage is a better illustration of singing? Rather, it is: how do we best illustrate the act of singing? I have replaced the top image with this one, that shows the pure joy of singing. There are many alternatives, such as this, this, this, this, or this. --2001:BB6:4713:4858:6CAE:79CB:8D47:2B8F (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:07, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

About the Third Opinion request: The request on this dispute has been removed as stale since it's been on the request list for 6 days with no volunteer choosing to take the request. Please see the instructions on the 3O page for additional possible steps (though it looks like y'all may have settled the dispute; if so, good for you!). Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:06, 30 September 2020 (UTC) (Not watching this page)

Singing competition photo

A section on singing competitions has had a selective photo added of a current winner of one competition who is named in the caption. That's promotional, if you ask me. A photo from an awards ceremony or competition where several performers are shown, and none is named, might be appropriate. The promo is not. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The photo is not a promotional picture - it is a picture of a person who illustrates the subject matter of the section, having appeared as both a participant and as a judge on multiple different singing competitions.--Alza08 (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The photo per se is mot promotional. What's clearly promotional is adding it to this particular article while naming the person in it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Veggies go for the best when they are not cooked and are very tender when they are done cooking or in a pan or on a skillet with some olive oil or oil and salt to cook them on the grill or grill them on a grill 108.56.165.224 (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

"Clean vocals" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Clean vocals has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 8 § Clean vocals until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 21:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

"Clean vocal" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Clean vocal has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 8 § Clean vocal until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 21:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

"Clean Vocals" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Clean Vocals has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 8 § Clean Vocals until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 21:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

"Clean vocalist" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Clean vocalist has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 8 § Clean vocalist until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 21:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)