Talk:Sins of a Solar Empire

Improving information and content about Online Multiplayer

Online Multiplayer is a very important aspect of Sins of a Solar Empire, so we should try to improve the amount of information and content about it. So I propose that we add the following (indented) information. All of this information is verifiable common knowledge. Of course, since we are talking about a computer game, making a reference to a journalistic source or a formal academic publication is impossible, and if all content were held to the standard that we might require for an article about a controversial politician, game articles would consist of little more than a few sentences of content. What we might be able to do for a reference would be to set up a footnote and a link to the official Sins of a Solar Empire discussion forum, perhaps to a thread specifically about this information and its accuracy, where actual fans of the game who would possess this sort of knowledge first-hand can verify it. If anyone finds any inaccuracies or non-objective information in the content that I have added, please point that out here on the discussion page before deleting the offending material. WhipperSnapper (talk) 00:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

===Online Multiplayer===

Additional Strategic Considerations and More Challenging Opponents

Sins players can play with and/or against other people in online multiplayer through the game's Ironclad Online system or by setting up a LAN game. Although computer (AI) players are rather predictable and relatively easy to defeat, online multiplayer gives people the opportunity to compete against human opponents, which makes the game much more challenging, suspenseful, and intense. Playing online multiplayer team games also adds new strategic considerations because players will need to function as part of a team. (For example, a player who is being overrun by computer opponents in a single player game might resign and end the game. However, in a team game it is still possible for a losing player to win if his team wins, so even though he is personally suffering defeat, it may be wise to stay in the game and to try to delay or hold up his immediate opponents or distract other opponents by hitting them in the back or to join his forces with one of his allies' fleets, helping his team to victory.) "Unlocked" free for all (FFA) games introduce new diplomatic elements since players will need to make and break alliances with conniving, backstabbing human opponents and allies.

Most online multiplayer activity occurs during European and North American evenings, and most of the large team games are played with the Entrenchment expansion. Often players will set up 5v5 PUG (pick-up game) matches where two captains draft-pick the other eight players, often resulting in balanced teams and intense, competitive games. Although the game will not automatically download custom maps made with the Galaxy Forge program, players can manually download and install custom maps as needed without having to restart their game program.

-----for the Entrenchment section-----

Entrenchment has proven itself to be successful for online multiplayer, and most of the games played over Ironclad Online, especially those played on the largest maps with the most players (4v4 and 5v5), are played with the Entrenchment expansion.

You can't use forum posts as sources, because they are not reliable sources. What you call "verifiable common knowledge" first off, it's an appeal to popular opinion, which can only be verified by asking players of the game, and whichever way you go about doing that, you're back at the problem of reliable sources. Now, the stuff you want to add classifies as game guide material. Check out WP:VG/GL, it contains the guidelines for what should and should not be added to Wikipedia. 01:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

According to the guidelines in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources many things can qualify as sources for computer game discussions, including even reference to the game itself and by implication the online portion of the game since that is part of the game itself. The "Fansites" entry suggests that forum discussions on forums affiliated with game publishers might qualify as reliable sources. I have just started a discussion here: http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/362230

"Games are primary sources in articles about themselves. Whether it is good to use them as a source varies by perspective, subject and game. For a reader, it is usually very hard to use a video game to check facts. Provide transcripts wherever possible, and enable readers to check the facts themselves by noting which area, level or episode is cited."

So, it may in fact be permissible to use a game itself as a source and by implication the online multiplayer portion of the game as a source if it can be verified by the reader. Anyone who is interested in verifying the information in the material I propose to add is welcome to do so and it is easy to verify.

Where do you see inaccuracies in my proposed content addition? Please point them out. How is anything I propose to add "Game Guide Material"? If I explained what players' opening moves should be, that would be game guide material. Describing the Online Multiplayer aspect of the game isn't the same as telling people where to find secret magic item X. Also, please tell us what your qualifications are to discuss or edit an article about Sins of a Solar Empire. How often do you play the game? Are you an active participant on the official Sins discussion forum where the game's publishers post information about the game? What names do you play under on Ironclad Online? Secondly, are you applying your standards consistently to all of the material? In your view, is it necessary for every piece of content to have a reference to a journalistic publication or a formal academic publication in order for it to be legitimate? If we held every article about computer games up to the same strict standard that we use for controversial politicians, every game entry would be left with little more than a few sentences.

I have read both Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources and Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines, and the guidelines are rather ambiguous and fluid. Basically, descriptive and factual material that helps people unfamiliar with the game understand the game is appropriate as long as it is objective and factual and there is a consensus for it (what I call "verifiable common knowledge" and the game itself may even serve as a reference. WhipperSnapper (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's dissect the proposed material line by line:

Sins players can play with and/or against other people in online multiplayer through the game's Ironclad Online system or by setting up a LAN game. TRUE. Reference--the Game itself.

Although computer (AI) players are rather predictable and relatively easy to defeat, online multiplayer gives people the opportunity to compete against human opponents, which makes the game much more challenging, suspenseful, and intense. TRUE. Reference--the Game itself and the official Sins discussion forum where players complain about the AI's ability to play the game all the time and often ask whether mods that improve the AI are available. It is also very well-documented at the official forum that the online multiplayer game is much more challenging than the single player game. Also players can verify this by playing the game itself so the game itself may serve as a reference.

Playing online multiplayer team games also adds new strategic considerations because players will need to function as part of a team. (For example, a player who is being overrun by computer opponents in a single player game might resign and end the game. However, in a team game it is still possible for a losing player to win if his team wins, so even though he is personally suffering defeat, it may be wise to stay in the game and to try to delay or hold up his immediate opponents or distract other opponents by hitting them in the back or to join his forces with one of his allies' fleets, helping his team to victory.) "Unlocked" free for all (FFA) games introduce new diplomatic elements since players will need to make and break alliances with conniving, backstabbing human opponents and allies. TRUE. The differences between single player and online multiplayer team games and the strategic issues it raises have been discussed many times at the official forum. Also players can verify this by playing the game itself so the game itself may serve as a reference.

Most online multiplayer activity occurs during European and North American evenings, and most of the large team games are played with the Entrenchment expansion. Often players will set up 5v5 PUG (pick-up game) matches where two captains draft-pick the other eight players, often resulting in balanced teams and intense, competitive games. Although the game will not automatically download custom maps made with the Galaxy Forge program, players can manually download and install custom maps as needed without having to restart their game program. TRUE. This too can be easily verified making the game itself the reference.

Entrenchment has proven itself to be successful for online multiplayer, and most of the games played over Ironclad Online, especially those played on the largest maps with the most players (4v4 and 5v5), are played with the Entrenchment expansion. TRUE. Again, this too can be easily verified.

What do you find inaccurate or difficult to verify? Why do you think the game itself and discussions at the official Sins discussion forum should not qualify as references for this easily verifiable material? WhipperSnapper (talk) 02:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Scratching the surface here: Gameguide material is in the multiplayer section - Strategy guide to be specific; it goes into too much detail about what the player can do if they are losing and how they can rebound. Also, the first sentence was, in bold "Additional Strategic Considerations and More Challenging Opponent", that just reeks of game guide. There are strategy guides out there that elaborate and define such problems, whereas Wikipedia has to just define the multiplayer section of the game from a purely encyclopedic perspective. It's not Wikipedia's job to say what can possibly happen in multiplayer, its job is to define that aspect of the game. Now as for using the game itself, how would you go about doing that? The rules you cite typically apply to Plot sections, for example: A lead character says "blahblahblah" and in the references section you will see an exact quote from the game, with possible extra info on which level and so forth. How would you cite that "AI players are rather predictable and relatively easy to defeat" or that "it may be wise to stay in the game and to try to delay or hold up his immediate opponents or distract other opponents"? That's strategy/game guide material and original research also. You can check the game manual and cite that if you can find any info relating to multiplayer or other important aspects of the game. 02:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The material I propose to add appears to be permissible under WP:VG/GL. "Strategy guides and walkthroughs: Basic strategy concepts are helpful to understand the game, but avoid details about how to solve puzzles and defeat certain foes." Why would mentioning that the online multiplayer game offers "Additional Strategic Considerations and More Challenging Opponents" not be helpful for understanding the game? In fact, that isn't even a "strategy concept", rather that's descriptive of the online multiplayer game itself and it is not a component of a "strategy guide". Online multiplayer is a significant and very important component of games today and information about online multiplayer is valuable to a great many readers. In fact, at the official Sins discussion forum the developers themselves thought it was important enough to include three separate forums for online discussion--Multiplayer Organizer, Multiplayer, and Sins Clans.

How to reference "AI players are predictable and rather easy to defeat."? The reference is consensus on the official discussion forums (where it is well-documented) and this point can be verified by playing the game itself. If several active players were involved with editing this article, I'm sure we would have a consensus on this point.

"it may be wise to stay in the game and to try to delay or hold up his immediate opponents or distract other opponents". In the context of the proposed addition, this helps readers understand the difference between the online multiplayer game and the single player game. I have argued elsewhere that single player Sins and online multiplayer Sins, are, in fact, completely different games as a result of the games' strategic considerations and conditions for victory. The purpose of that line is to help readers understand that difference and not to offer strategic advice. Also, "basic strategy concepts are helpful to understand the game." WP:VG/GL

I am wondering what exactly qualifies you to be able to determine what is and what is not an essential element of understanding the Sins of a Solar Empire game. What names do you play under on Ironclad Online? What name do you use on the official Sins discussion forum and how long have you participated on the forum? I ask, not to be an ass, but because it seems like some first-hand knowledge and preferably very detailed knowledge of the game is needed in order to possess the overall context of knowledge needed to be able to edit this article properly. I have played the game very heavily for over a year-and-a-half, I have been an active participant on the official discussion forum, I have talked to the game's developers, both in-game over Ironclad Online and over IRC, and I play the game in online multiplayer. For all intents and purposes I possess expert knowledge about the game. What are your qualifications? WhipperSnapper (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Using the first line of each section would be best, I think. You really do not need the very in-depth knowledge to see that your tips are going in-depth. The title, example, map, and PUG lines in particular are all too in-depth and also sound straight from a guide rather than an article. ZeroEnero (talk) 11:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

WhipperSnapper, you cannot use forums or IRC channels as a source; they are not reliable sources. And you can't just cite the game to push your POV, because you would just be citing the game's existence, not what you are trying to say. "Sins of Solar Empire is one of the best multiplayer games of modern times because it exists", that's what you would be saying if you wrote "Sins of a Solar Empire is one of the best multiplayer games" and cited the game. Also, going by this logic, you could write anything you want about anything. For example: It is widely known that Daikatana is a bad game, and then once again just cite the game and you'd slip right past WP:VERIFY. Citing forums or IRC channels are lazy patches to avoid verifying the information you're trying to add. Wikipedia uses independent, reliable sources. Now, just for good measure: I say that the the game is not easy. Now it's your word against mine; who's telling the truth and which opinion is more notable? No-one knows, because neither of these opinions can be verified. Whether or not I have played the game is irrelevant, because anyone can enforce the rules of Wikipedia with little to no knowledge of the subject as long as they stick to the guidelines. Also, remember that Wikipedia doesn't deal with truth, it deals with verifiability. That's why you can write what seems like a perfect paragraph on an article and quickly have it reverted. Other articles such as as those biographical articles about living persons are even more rigorous and strict because once again, they have to adhere to WP:VERIFY, lest they simply be dismissed and removed as slander and libel. Granted there is no possibility of damage whether emotional or physical caused by a video game article, but the sheer amount of bloat that is added to articles can completely deter readers from even bothering reading the article. I know I wouldn't bother reading an article that doesn't tell me anything about the game. Basically, the WP:VG/GL's purpose is to keep the articles encyclopedic, and that's not what is being done here in my opinion. 13:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Diplomacy to be the final Expansion

Looks like Stardock's calling it quits after just two expansions, instead of making three.

http://pax.stardock.com/

Just go there and scroll down to the Diplomacy section, it says in the first sentence:

"Gamers can complete their Sins of a Solar Empire experience with the final micro-expansion of the series."

Too bad, I was wanting more ships.

Chris122990 (talk) 17:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Community sites

The article could really use some more links.

Races not complete

What about the Previans, Jisura Nomads and Arn Consortium? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.7.140.60 (talk) 06:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

those are just splinter groups of the core factions for the ai's to use as names, not notable 24.17.211.150 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC).

Sales Record on Rebellion

I heard somewhere that Stardock made a sales record with the release of Rebellion. I think that should be added somewhere in this article. What do you think? NR2001 (talk) 01:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

6/22/16 DLC

New DLC for Rebellion was released 6/22/2016 titled Outlaw Sectors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.209.178 (talk) 19:28, 22 June 2016 (UTC)