Talk:Sissinghurst Castle Garden/Archive 2

Suggestions

Tryptofish here are the (very) minor issues I mentioned:

• Within sections, images go below the hatnotes (see MOS:SANDWICH).
• Also, MOS:SANDWICH, images don't go at bottom of sections.
• And, there is a good deal of Sandwiched text between images; I could attempt to clean that up for you, but you might prefer to do it yourself? There are several techniques you could use listed at the bottom of User talk:SandyGeorgia#To do.
• The other thing is MOS:LQ (logical quotation). I see lots of misses, but fixing them myself is always tricky, as it's not always clear which is which without the sources. Logical quotation is the sort of thing I point out on a FAC, but I don't bother to check if nominators fix it, 'cuz don't care unless there are a lot that are obviously wrong. The way you can scroll through to check these is by doing a ctrl-f on ". and ." and ", and ,"
• Not clear why the maindate was wonky in Article history, but I fixed that so you now have a link to the TFA blurb.
• And articlehistory was not in sort order, and the oldid on the PR was wrong (weirdness).

Let me know if you want image layout help, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Sandy, thanks very much for this, and for the two corrections you made to the page, as well as the corrections to this talk page. KJP1 and anyone else who is interested, this comes out of a discussion here (mostly towards the bottom). Since I'm still in not-doing-much-editing mode, it might be a while until I put in any significant time on these things, but of course KJP1 or others might want to do it, too. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

PS. For what it's worth, I remember going through the entire page and checking for LQ for those sources that I have in hand, but of course that would not have been everything. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

That’s one prob with MOS:LQ... without the sources, reviewer cannot be sure ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

With regard to the image placings, this is not an area I have any expertise in. Very happy for Sandy to adjust as she sees fit. Re. MOS:LQ, I’m afraid I just don’t understand the issue. I think it’s a “punctuation before or after the quotes” issue? My practice, but I can’t guarantee I’ve followed it throughout, is to place it after the quote marks, unless the quote is entirely self-contained. That said, I have all the sources I used, so can certainly check any questionable ones, if they are pointed out. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Will look in later with suggestions, iPad typing now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:40, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, @KJP1 and Tryptofish:, MOS:LQ is tricky and hard to understand, which is why, if I raise it on a FAC, I don't usually concern myself beyond pointing out the page, as I can't often tell if it is being followed or not. Here are some samples that confuse me:

• (seems like the punc would be within the quote?) His entry for 4 April 1930, records, "Vita telephones to say she has seen the ideal house – a place in Kent, near Cranbrook, a sixteenth-century castle".
• (punc within?) reads: "a tremendous raid in the morning and the whole upper air buzzes and zooms with the noise of aeroplanes. There are many fights over our sunlight fields".
• (punc within?) Nicolson recorded her death in his diary: "Ursula[m] is with Vita. At about 1.5 she observes that Vita is breathing heavily, and then suddenly is silent. She dies without fear or self-reproach. I pick some of her favourite flowers and lay them on her bed".
• (punc within?) The room as a whole is a recreation of Knole, "Vita's record of her disinheritance".
• (punc within?) His diary entry for 20 April 1933 records: "My new wing has been done. The sitting room is lovely ... My bedroom, w.c. and bathroom are divine".
• (why punc within?) Jane Brown suggests that "without Long Barn there would have been no Sissinghurst."

Those are a few samples, and I do not pretend to understand MOS:LQ any better than the next dummy-- it is an area of MOS that I find particularly frustrating.

On the MOS:SANDWICHING, I can go in and make the adjustments I see necessary, and am willing to do so with the caveat that you are all free to revert anything I mess up. What I do is make the adjustments from one computer, and then go view them on three other devices to make sure all sandwiching is addressed as viewed on multiple browsers and devices ... so it sometimes takes me several edits. The one I can't see how to address is at Sissinghurst Castle Garden#Vita Sackville-West and Harold Nicolson: 1930–1968, where text is sandwiched between the quote box and the image. Is it possible to move either the quote box or the image to another section, or can they be stacked in this section? I will work on the rest after breakfast; absolutely feel free to revert anything I mess up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Again, thanks very much to both of you! About LQ, it's something that I actually do, sort of, understand, and when I said earlier that I had previously checked for it in "my" parts of the page, I can see that every example Sandy listed is from KJP1's "parts" of the page. I'll try to explain it this way, and if you want to, KJP1, you can check those examples against the sources, since those are the sources that you have and I don't.

The basic idea is that if the final punctuation mark was there in the source being quoted, then it should be inside the quote marks, but if the final punctuation mark was not originally there, but instead was added by the WP editor to make the overall sentence work, then the mark goes after the closing quote mark. (I'm pretty sure the first three on Sandy's list should be changed for that reason.) I'll use the last example, from Jane Brown, to try and explain it:

• If the source says something like: "It's very clear that without Long Barn there would have been no Sissinghurst.": The period stays inside the closing quote mark, because it was the end of the sentence in the original source.
• If the source says something like: "I think that without Long Barn there would have been no Sissinghurst, just as without (something else) there would have been no Sissinghurst either.": The quote mark should come before the period, because there was not a period at that exact position in the original.

About sandwiching text, I realize that I'm the worst offender, in the part about roses. It looks to me like the problem arises from having two separate sets of multiple images of rose flowers, on opposite sides of the page, with text in between. I was thinking of making them into a single multiple image, so it would all be on one side of the page, but I needed to figure out how to handle the two differing types of caption styles. I was also thinking of just putting them one directly above the other, both on the right side of the page (with some of the roses switched from the left column to the right, so they would "face" towards the middle of the page). I think something like that, with some left/right switching of the images that come later, would have an additional benefit, by putting the funereal quote from The Land on the right side of the page, as a proper ending.

For the 1930–1968 section, it may be best to move the quote box to another section, but I'm not sure.

As for Sandy or anyone else taking a whack at it even if something needs to be further corrected, I'm all in favor of it, and I personally won't be bothered by it at all. Please just be patient about my own slowness, for my own reasons these days. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:53, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Wholly agree - move the images at will! I shall swap out either the quote box or the Lazslo. I’m sure one of them can move elsewhere. As to the MOS:LQ, I will have a look at Sandy’s examples and Trypto’s explanations, and see if I can make sense of it. Unfortunately, life is, oddly enough, horribly busy just now so no guarantees as to when. Thanks and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

After saying I wouldn't get to it for a while, I actually just went ahead and moved a lot of images around in the Plants section of the page. I did it differently from what I wrote above, based on how it looked as I went along. I'm still not sure that it's really right this way, but I'll leave it for a while. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

And I also did some moves for the quote box in the history parts, again may not be quite there yet. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, hubby had sudden emergency, lost vision, in ER now, did not get to it, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh, how awful! So sorry, please don't worry about anything here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Quick glance from ipad looks good on images, computer at home will be different though, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Looks like you two have this covered, so I will unwatch now. Opthamologist is on his way in to ER (on a Sunday, how’s that for service), so we will be here a while ... looks like NAION. Growin’ old ain’t for sissies! Over ‘n out, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)