Talk:Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kimikel talk 01:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

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Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill (1885)

• ... that one of the last photographs ever taken of Sitting Bull shows him side by side with Buffalo Bill?

• Source: Journal de Montréal (Évelyne Ferron, 19 May 2024) : « D’ailleurs, une de ses photographies les plus célèbres a été prise dans le grand studio montréalais William Notman & Son. Ces photographies sont d’autant plus importantes puisqu’elles sont parmi les dernières prises du grand chef sioux. » (French) = "In fact, one of the most famous photographs [of Sitting Bull] was taken in the great Montreal studio William Notman & Son. These photographs are especially important because they are some of the last ever taken of the great Sioux leader." (English)

Link: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2024/05/19/lincroyable-passage-a-montreal-du-legendaire-chef-lakota-sioux-sitting-bull-et-de-buffalo-bill-en-tournee-avec-le-spectacle--buffalo-bills-wild-west

• • Reviewed:

Created by WikiFouf (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

WikiFouf (talk) 22:58, 4 August 2024 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Picture kind of blurry but accepted for historical reasons. The source is accepted in good faith because the source is French. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 11:22, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: WikiFouf (talk · contribs) 23:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 23:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

General comments

I'll be adding comments to this bit by bit, you can respond as I go or at the end of the review. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Prose/content

Lede

• Canadian photographer is Notman's nationality important? It is presumed he is Canadian if his photo studio is in Montreal.
• where both subjects -> where the subjects
• Notman himself is redundant
• Follow MOS:SURNAME for Buffalo Bill
• The two subjects' opposing -> Their opposing
• photograph to be captioned -> caption

Background

• The battle resulted in a major victory for the Native Americans, as well as the death of Custe edit for concision, "resulted in a" and "as well as" can generally be made less wordy (i.e. "and Custer's death")
• he found success less colloquial
• , in honour of the recently deceased general redundant
• Nine years later, redundant
• an exile in Canada -> being exiled from Canada ?
• lap around the arena could you elaborate?

Session

• During their stay -> While
• took part in a Can this be more concise?
• publicity purposes -> publicity material ? unsure. The photography session wasn't done for publicity, it was the photographs.

Description

• The sentences in this section are a bit too short, should be combined with conjunctions.
• towards an imagined horizon Can you quote what the sources says on this?
• In an analysis of Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill, redundant
• cultural figure What is a cultural figure?
• describes MOS:SAID
• "the conqueror", like the photograph, could you elaborate what you mean here?
• is flouted by Sitting Bull's "untameable interiority" flouted?

Legacy

• Is the Western legend referring to the Wild West or Buffalo Bill? Sorry if this is obvious.
• the last photographs of Sitting Bull, who was killed by American police in 1890. reword so it's not just copying the lede or vice versa.

Other

• of the photograph in infobox redundant
• Subject category in infobox redundant
• as Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill in caption redundant. Same with Solo in same caption

Sources

• Try to find a secondary source to replace the claims made by Brittanica, although this will not fail the article
• I can see some key sources that do/likely go into more detail that haven't been included:
  • Buffalo Bill and Sitting Bull: Inventing the Wild West
  • BUFFALO BILL AND THE INDIAN IMAGE IN EUROPE
  • Blood Brothers: The Story of the Strange Friendship between Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill
  • Foe, Friend, or Critic
• I'm sure there's more, these are just what I've found from a few minutes. To be GA the article does not have to be comprehensive, but given the amount of more reliable sources I wouldn't say it yet addresses the main aspects without information from significant RS being integrated.

Spot check:

1) Sitting Bull gazes downward, seemingly motionless. Y

2) He argues that "the conqueror", like the photograph, is flouted by Sitting Bull's "untameable interiority". Should be the photographer rather than photograph. N

3) The battle resulted in a major victory for the Native Americans, as well as the death of Custer. Could you quote what in the article this is referenced with? clock

4) art historian Sarah Parsons considers it "reasonable to assume that when celebrities came to the studio, Notman would have been involved in the session, if not operating the camera". Y

5) Nine years later, in 1885, Sitting Bull was living in a South Dakota reservation after an exile in Canada. Y

Other

• Broad: The article is good, but should have the sources above integrated per above. The information from the infobox about the medium should be discussed in the body, and hopefully elaborated. clock
• Images Y
• NPOV Y
• Stable Y
• COPYVIO/OR: 21.3% Earwig, most from quotes. Y

Suggestions

• Avoid false titles

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Rollinginhisgrave! I'll get to work on your suggestions whenever I can WikiFouf (talk) 02:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

No worries, thanks for bringing this article to GA! Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

1st batch of corrections

Hey @Rollinginhisgrave, thanks for your comments. I've completed a first batch of corrections to address those, most of the issues you brought up have been changed as suggested, here are the ones I need to comment on :

• an exile in Canada -> being exiled from Canada : Sitting Bull wasn't exiled from Canada to the US, I'm referring to an exile to Canada following the Battle of the Little Bighorn. To make it a bit clearer, I changed to "exile period", does that work?
• lap around the arena could you elaborate? : I wish. I haven't found a source yet with a good description of what he did exactly, I only know he wasn't doing much except a lap (by foot or on horseback?) of the arena, during which he was generally booed
• took part in a Can this be more concise? : Can't think of a better word, I'll see in the next few days if something comes to mind

How you feel about took part in a photography session -> were photographed ? All the following sentence shows this was in a studio.

That's good Y

• Sentences too short : I combined two sentences already but I plan on adding some stuff to that section anyways (thanks to one of the sources you found!) so I'll check when it's done
• towards an imagined horizon Can you quote what the sources says on this? : I added "imagined" simply because they're in a studio so there's no actual horizon. Maybe "suggested" is better? Did you want the quote because it's unclear or because you think I should expand on that subject? There are a couple of lines in the source interpreting the fake horizon but they don't really strike me as the core of the analysis

Just wanted the context, imagined horizon is okay.

• cultural figure What is a cultural figure? : I mean a notable figure of the cultural sector. I know it's vague but it's hard to summarize who Dudemaine is concisely, and I also don't think I should dedicate more than a couple of words to his credentials. He is one of the founders of Terres en vues and its associated Indigenous film festival, before that he was a director. In French, I've seen him being described as "animateur culturel", which doesn't really translate well to English. Any suggestions?

Does he fall under cultural icon? Influencer?

I don't think either of them applies tbh

• describes MOS:SAID : Not sure what you mean here, isn't "describe" also neutral, like "said", according to MOS:SAID?

Describes ascribes veracity to the content of the statement, "said" doesn't have those implications.

• "the conqueror", like the photograph, could you elaborate what you mean here? : Don't know if it clears things up, but "photograph" is a typo, it should be "photographer". Dudemaine uses "the conqueror" as a generic/symbolic term, he's not referring to any one conqueror in particular

I should have struck this, identified this in the sources section.

• flouted : it came up as the closest translation to the original French word "narguer", I didn't know the word before so I might use it incorrectly. "Defied" could maybe work instead
• Is the Western legend referring to the Wild West or Buffalo Bill? : The Wild West
• Subject category in infobox redundant : I'm open to removing it if necessary, but I kinda like when all the essential wikilinks are in the infobox

It's silly to have the subjects listed as Sitting Bull; Buffalo Bill when the photograph is called Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: The less information that an infobox contains, the more effectively it serves its purpose

• Thanks for the sources! First one doesn't have seem to have much that's helpful (although the copy I found on Google Books is missing sections). Your link to the second one doesn't work for me unfortunately, if you have another one I would love to look into it. "Blood Brothers" I was aware of, it would probably be helpful, but I haven't found a copy online or at any library close to me. The last one though I just read and has really helpful stuff. I'll update the article shortly with what I found in there

1: I can only see the same as you, just did a peripheral look and saw relevant content. I can see a whole lot of reviews which contain various academic perspectives on the relationship between them, which are good sources.

2: academia.edu

3: It's online to be downloaded for free. I won't say where, but it can be found.

4: it appears the scalping is contested. I'm quite worried about this article's engagement with the literature, for a history article there is about one solid source.

I read this source too, my understanding is that the killing and scalping are not disputed, only the "First scalp for Custer" thing. That's why I wrote "allegedly", but it definitely could be clearer that it's a disputed element

I want you research this a lot more. This article can be so so good. You've got the Wikipedia Library, use JSTOR, Google Scholar, go through reference lists and find what books and articles are referring to. Find biographies of Buffalo Bill and Sitting Bull, see how they describe the photograph being taken. I'm not saying you need all of it, just see what the academic literature is saying about this. I can see so much that could go into this.

Fair enough, thanks for the suggestions!

• Britannica: is Britannica not good? I'm sure I can find another source though

WP:PSTS: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources.

Oh right okay

• The battle resulted in a major victory for the Native Americans, as well as the death of Custer. Could you quote what in the article this is referenced with? : "The Battle of the Little Bighorn is significant because it proved to be the height of Native American power during the 19th century. It was also the worst U.S. Army defeat during the Plains Wars." + other part for Custer's death

Looking at the aftermath where they were ripped apart in revenge, it doesn't seem like a "major victory for the Native Americans." It might have been the height of their power, but it was all downhill from there; they didn't "win" anything.

I meant "major" as "famous"/"iconic" but I can see how it's misleading, I'll change it

• Info about the medium in the infobox : I will work that into the "Session" section as I rewrite it

WikiFouf (talk) 07:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Big update

Hey @Rollinginhisgrave, I just published a big update of the article! Thanks a lot for pushing me to look for better sources, I found tons of cool and useful stuff and hopefully this new version reflects it. One important change I should mention is that I now refer to Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill as a set of photographs rather than a single one. This is based on the more scholarly sources I found, which mostly approached the subject that way. Let me know what you think of the article when you have the time:) - WikiFouf (talk) 01:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Wow. From a quick sweep, better than I could have even hoped.

Before I continue with the review, can you ensure that references to "the photograph" are clarified now that it refers to a series of photographs? I can see some issues in the Description section with this, the subtitle will need to be changed or the section expanded to look at other photographs.

I would also recommend dropping a line on User talk:Oncamera to ask if they can spare some time to do a quick sweep and see if there are any content issues. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave Thanks! When I refer to the single, most famous photograph (the one generally captioned "Enemies in '76, Friends in '85") I try to make it clear, but let me know if I missed anything. A lot of the Description and Analysis sections are about the one photograph because the sources focused on it specifically. I don't have extensive descriptions of any of the other poses (just added a quick line though to mention one of them), but the descriptions of the clothing and background apply to every photo in the set. Basically my general rule now is that Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill refers to the set of dual portraits, "Enemies in '76, Friends in '85" refers to the most famous one of the set. Also I reached out to Oncamera, thanks for the rec:) WikiFouf (talk) 16:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

After quick read thru, initial thoughts:

• The lead says "The depiction of his relationship with Cody in Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill has been analyzed and criticized by scholars in relation to the settler colonialism of the American territory."
  • But I see a lack of criticism, and nothing seemingly written by Native scholars on this topic.
• Also, it refers to their clothing as "costumes". It's actually offensive to refer to Native regalia as a costume, even if they are being used as photographic props so that should be written in a neutral tone. I read that Sitting Bull was sometimes gifted items used in his photographs. More care should be written about his regalia as well to further explain the meanings of the items, such as his otter fur hair wraps or his bag seems to be a bandolier bag created by Anishinaabe tribes.
• There is also a lack of historical context to these photos and a lack of opinion by Sitting Bull himself or other Lakota performers in the show such as Black Elk or Luther Standing Bear. So that context can be added to the background section to provide more insight outside of just "who are" Sitting Bull or Buffalo Bill.

 oncamera  _{(talk page)} 17:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the read and feedback!

• The criticism in the lede refers to Kasson ("[T]he 'friendship' offered in this photograph [...] honor[s] American Indian dignity only at the expense of surrender to white dominance and control.") and Scarangella McNenly (who views it as an early example of the foe-to-friend discourse, which was "part of an evolving discourse about civilizing and assimilating Native people" and "signaled to the public the successful civilizing of Native peoples, as well as their changing relationship with the white settler community"). While less explicitly critical, I would also add that Bara views the "Cowboys and Indians" trope, which they link to the photograph, as a "cliché" which "was instrumental in the fabrication of the popular idea of the Wild West".
  • I unfortunately haven't found any scholarly sources that were seemingly by Native scholars. If you have any useful resources to suggest that I might have missed, please let me know:) I do however have the text by André Dudemaine, who is Innu
• Switched out "costumes"; thanks also for pointing out items like the hair wraps, which I hadn't even noticed on the photo
• I can try to do some research on that when I have the time, if you have specific sources to suggest let me know!

WikiFouf (talk) 22:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Would you be okay with me taking this out of GAN while you resolve these issues? I imagine they will require a bit more time than GAN can offer you. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 14:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave For sure WikiFouf (talk) 16:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.