Talk:Slide guitar/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ojorojo (talk · contribs) 14:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I'll review this. I'm looking over a FLC right now, so ignore the "This process may take up to 7 days" bot message. It'll take as long as needed. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Overall, the article looks good. I'll start by making some minor MOS changes, which is easier than listing them here. Please change them if they are a problem.

I've removed links to sites that appear to have user-generated content. I don't think it will be a problem to replace these with RS (try a google book search). If not, the material probably shouldn't be in the article (Brian Cober/Double slide?). —Ojorojo (talk) 17:13, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

• Audio samples: the captions should describe the sample and not include commentary (that's for the main body). Also, I'm not sure that Johnson's TRB is "one of the best-known examples". Perhaps something like "First 29 seconds including Johnson's slide guitar". Same with DMB, "x second sample including James' use of a repeating slide triplets figure". —Ojorojo (talk) 14:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
• History

• The ref indicates that "the 'diddley bow' is derived from a one-string African instrument", not that the African instrument was called a diddley bow (also note lower case "d").
• "Some of the blues artists who most prominently used the slide": needs a ref (I have an All Music Guide to the Blues that lists Son House, Charley Patton, Bukka White, Robert Johnson, Kokomo Arnold, Casey Bill Weldon, Tampa Red, Mississippi Fred McDowell, etc. – but no Blind Willies). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:12, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions--here is a checklist:

• replaced weak refs with stronger ones
• Had already deleted "double slide" section and image (it was a cool picture, but nothing in literature)
• Fixed captions under sound files
• changed "diddley bow"
• revised list of blues pioneers with Allmusic ref
• Added paragraph about delta blues migrating to other cities--Eagledj (talk) 17:28, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

• Looks good. The last point is of interest to urban blues, but, except for Chicago, doesn't really apply to slide (& isn't mentioned in the ref). —Ojorojo (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

• Influential early electric slide guitarists

• I added a bit about Nighthawk and will do the same for Hooker, James, and Waters. Also, converted the book refs to ref=harv style (easier to deal with; doesn't affect the web refs). —Ojorojo (talk) 18:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Johnny Winter – I'm not sure why this should be here. The ref only says that Winter played with (and produced) some Muddy Waters' albums from 1976–1981 (a later point in Winter's career) and nothing about what Winter may have gotten from him (a point I was trying to get across in an earlier comment). Bloomfield actually learned from Waters in the early 1960s. I hope to add this to next section. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:29, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

• Good digging. I was not able to pin down the page or text for the mention of Hawaiian guitar influence attributed to the Cambridge Companion to the Blues. Shouldn't it have a ref/page?

• I used an online eBook preview, which doesn't show page numbers. So I used {sfn|Moore|2003|loc=eBook}. Is there a better way? —Ojorojo (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• Added Sol Hoopii, Hawaiian influence on Mississippi blues—(my first ref=harv style)

• Nice. I made a couple of minor adjustments (clicking on the "Note" didn't lead to the ref). —Ojorojo (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• Remove Johnny Winter fine with me, but he is mentioned in a lot of slide articles--Eagledj (talk) 23:23, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

• Winter was definitely a player, but so is Jeff Beck and a few others. Problem is, when you start adding them without sufficient narrative, it starts to look like a laundry list. —Ojorojo (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• An idea: since "Slide guitar in rock music" only discusses the earliest guitarists who began in the 1960s, maybe title it "Early slide guitar in rock music" or "Slide guitar in 1960s rock music". This article is more of a historical overview and not a comprehensive listing. Maybe List of slide guitarists could be improved. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:03, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• Harrison – In looking for refs, I found a quote from Harrison that it was actually McCartney on slide for "Drive My Car".[1] Another ref shows that Lennon played the slide on "Run for Your Life".[2] I've removed the Harrison paragraph for now. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:04, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Moving it along, suggestions noted:

• Changed section heading to "Slide guitar in 1960s rock music", more accurate description
• Cambridge Companion- took out direct quote and put paraphrase in text-- I think flows better with Tampa Red, since we're talking about him there. No strong feelings.
• Subheadings added- easier for the reader to scan quickly
• Footnote added because I was curious about origin of "Vestapol"---problem is that the Wikilink to Vestapol is misleading, so should we just not have a Wikilink there? (actually it's the Vestapol article that needs editing)
• Jettisoned some tedious details in "technique"(not a music lesson).
• We could do without the whole paragraph about Delta Blues moving to other cities, per your comment above. I thought I'd be flagged for too much about Chicago emphasis. Strike it? --Eagledj (talk) 18:49, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

• All are improvements. I removed the migration paragraph while repositioning the efn list. Hope to add more over the weekend. —Ojorojo (talk) 01:07, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

• Lap slide guitar – there are several sentences which need refs.

• "The steel is held in the non-dominant hand and pressed against the strings and moved horizontally to change the pitch. The ring and little finger usually rest on the strings to block unwanted overtones.[2]" "The lap instruments are typically plucked with the dominant hand, with or without finger picks. On occasion, an artist may use a flat pick. Both hands may be involved another important function—to dampen or mute unwanted strings and to stop notes in staccato passages to prevent notes from running together.[47]" – These two separate discussions overlap and could be reduced to one. Also, some of these techniques are common to slide guitar as well. Perhaps they could be discussed there and mentioned here as "As with slide guitar, lap slide uses similar picking and damping techniques." —Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
• "The instruments are designed with the strings relatively high off the fingerboard to allow for more pressure from a heavier steel without hitting the fingerboard. Actual frets may not exist on these instruments, only visual markers where the frets would normally be. The guitars have reinforced necks, often square, to withstand high tunings that would not be supported by the slimmer neck of a traditional guitar." – This sounds more like a lap steel; lap slide guitars are essentially regular guitars (but often with the bridge and sometimes nut raised). The photo has an example. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
• "The steel chosen may be in many different shapes and styles and is a matter of personal preference of the performer. The most common steel is a solid metal cylinder with one end rounded into a bullet shape, about 7⁄8 inch (2.2 centimetres) in diameter and 3 3⁄8 inches (8.6 centimetres) in length. Some lap slide guitar players choose a steel with a deep indentation or groove on each side so it can be held firmly (see photo), and may have squared-off ends. The better grip facilitates playing the rapid vibratos in blues music. This design, often used by resonator guitar players, facilitates hammer-on and pull-off notes.[47]" – there's too much detail here. Maybe something like "There are several steel designs and it is a matter of personal preference of the performer. Some are tube-shaped glass or metal, which fit over the players' finger. Other are similar to those used for steel guitar, such as a metal bar or a solid metal cylinder." The dimensions, indentation/groove, hammer-ons, etc., may be inappropriate for a more overview-type article. Maybe add the best of the info to the "Slides" section and move it to after "Lap slide guitar" section. —

Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Done

• "The "resophonic" or resonator guitar, invented in the late 1920s, ..." – There doesn't seem to be a preference for playing a dobro-type guitar on the lap vs. against the body. Two of the examples, House and White, did not play on the lap that I recall. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

• Resonator guitars should not be included in a "lap" section, since they are usually (primarily?) played in the traditional style. Maybe a separate section before "Slide". —Ojorojo (talk) 01:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Done

• "Nashvillian Jerry Douglas, called by Guitar Player magazine ..." Maybe add some other well-known players. Are most acoustic or are there electric players too? Any well-know songs that feature lap slide? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Jerry Douglas deleted--not a primary blues player

• "In the 1920's, Hermann Weissenborn manufactured ..." This may be more of a lap steel, than a lap slide. It is important to distinguish the two if possible. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Weissenborn deleted--is unnecessary and off the main topic

• Points to possibly consider/expand on – Is there a preference for slide vs. lap slide for any particular sound or type of music?

No preference. A lap steel is used for country and jazz as well as blues. A slide guitar is used only in blues, never in the other genres.

Maybe regular guitarists favor one and steel/country the other? Does position of the steel hand (fingers pointing to the high E instead low E) make any difference? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

A regular guitarist could learn slide easily— just adapt to the slide on the little finger; however, a lap guitar is foreign to him, mainly because it is played with left hand pronated instead of supinated and he can't have use of the frets.

Not finding many lap slide superstars, but I have some leads--Eagledj (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

The article is looking better and better. The "Lap" and "Slides" sections have only a couple of references. For GAs, nearly all sentences should have inline citations. Also, I think sources for any players mentioned in "Lap" should specifically say "lap slide guitar". —Ojorojo (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

I will get more refs in the other sections you mentioned. In the lap slide section, I am researching Freddie Roulette and Darick Campbell of the Campbell Brothers. I plan to add both if you agree. "Sacred Steel" may not exactly fit the article, but has some incredible blues lap steel which is hard to ignore.--Eagledj (talk) 17:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Good additions for Woods, Turner, and Roulette. I'm not sure Darick Campbell should be included: he's obviously a great player, but the refs don't really support lap slide over lap steel. Plus, his music doesn't help the idea that lap slide is usually blues or rock; he could fit too easily into the lap steel category. Since so few lap slide players are mentioned, perhaps only the most obvious blues-type players should be included. Tipaldi mentions Sonny Rhodes and Kenny Neal (and other less focused players like Kelly Joe Phelps, David Lindley, Ben Harper, Jeff Healy, etc.)[3] —Ojorojo (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Agreed--Darick Campbell deleted— diff genre and not"historically prominent"in lap slide guitar. Looking now at those players you suggested. I've made some refinements throughout. I Thought we were too heavy on quotes, especially Herzhaft, so I made your block quote into a paraphrase. Feel free to change it of course if you feel strongly— just thought the quote was not worth the exalted position. What about the subheadings under lap slide section? OK with them?--Eagledj (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree. Including "Some historically prominent lap slide guitar players include:" is a good lead-in and discourages name dropping. Those mentioned above don't rise to this level. Unsure about the subheadings – they are used for the "Influential early electric slide guitarists" and "Lap" sections, but not "60s rock". It's up to you. Tipaldi (Phelps chapter) is one of the few who actually says "lap slide" and maybe he could be added as a ref for "Nevertheless, the term "lap slide" coexists with "lap steel" to describe the same instrument played in a different style." Phelps himself says "lap steel", but I think his quote is interesting about starting with slide then moving to lap, tone, technique, etc., and may have a general use. Too much to quote directly? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

OK, good suggestion for Tipaldi ref inserted for "slide" and "steel" terms co-existing— done. I revised the sentence as well on the distinction of the two terms. I have run the list of the lap players above, and, to me, none fit quite right for inclusion: some are multi-instrumentalists, not-primary lap artists; Jeff Healy does not play with a steel, but rather his fingertips; Kelly Joe Phelps, 90% of his youtube videos that I saw are on traditional guitar, not lap.(although his lap steel is superb, check THIS)--Eagledj (talk) 16:22, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Wow... I think lap slide has been explored well enough and the article is just about done (although I'd like to add to Cooder). Something to consider: the article focus is on blues-style playing, but slide guitar is also used for rock and even pop. I removed Harrison, because some of the songs were not played by him, but he did have some memorable slide songs ("My Sweet Lord", "Day After Day", etc.) in the 1970s. I not sure where this and some other possibly noteworthy players/songs would fit in. Any ideas? —Ojorojo (talk) 17:49, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

The heading "1960s" limits us there. Making another section about later players might be overload, but it would be nice getting Bonnie Raitt and maybe Derek Trucks, Jerry Douglas, possibly Kelly Joe Phelps as well as Harrison in there. Want me to keep digging? So far the article is pretty concise (we have the Mt.Rushmore players) so when is it time to wrap it up?--Eagledj (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Every time I think of a name, more come up. The article provides more of a historical overview and is strong and focused. It's time to say pass. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Take a look at the additions to Cooder and edit if needed. Then I'll add the GA. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:30, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Checking against the GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Most of these points are covered in the discussions above.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   It is well referenced with inline cites on almost every sentence.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   It meets NPOV.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales]y): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   It makes good use of images; all check out.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Good job! This has come so far from the unfocused OR, blog and product link-filled state that it was in. Thanks for being persistent and patient and turning me on to some great players. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:07, 4 December 2017 (UTC)