Talk:Slovene grammar

The section on personal pronouns mentions several forms for the dual locative of the second-person pronouns. For example: "pri naju (dveh) | pri nas dveh | pri nama (dvema)". The implication of this, if I understand correctly, is that these are different but more or less equally valid forms. Is this actually true? To me, only "pri naju (dveh)" seems correct. "Pri nas (dveh)" looks like the common mistake of using the plural form instead of the dual one, and "pri nama (dvema)" looks like the common mistake of using the dative instead of the locative. Admittedly both of these mistakes are fairly common in colloquial and informal use, but I would be somewhat suprised if they have already been accepted as correct in the standard language. 194.249.231.140 15:50, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The SSKJ admits all three forms; the first two are equivalent, whilst the last one is, indeed, qualified as stylistically charged. And this should probably be noted, yes. (the qualificator 'tudi', according to the introduction to the dictionary, expresses equivalence in use, but the more common word is placed first)

mídva  médve tudi mídve médve tudi mídve zaim., náju (dvéh) tudi nàs dvéh, náma (dvéma), náju (dvá dvé dvé) tudi nàs dvá dvé dvé, náju (dvéh) tudi nàs dvéh stil. náma (dvéma), náma (dvéma)

Considering that the SP should now be considered normative as opposed to the SSKJ, I suppose it would make sense to see what is given there as well. —Sinuhe 20:04, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Neither of the two is trustworthy. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 09:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Defining the subject in a sentence

Quote: The nominative case defines a subject of a sentence; all other cases define an object as either direct or indirect.

The second part of the statement is not necessarily correct as nouns in other cases can also take on the role of the subject, depending on whether or not they fit into the role of the first actant. The genitive subject is even standardized when it comes to negation (eg. "Soseda ni doma." and NOT "Sosed ni doma."). Whether or not a noun in dative or accusative case can be used in the role of a subject is debatable (eg. "Sanjalo se mi je." or "Očeta je pobralo."). 89.143.125.233 (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Accentual paradigms

The grammar page currently doesn't say anything about accent at all. But it is an important part of the declension so it seems like a rather bad oversight. Could more be added about it? CodeCat (talk) 03:44, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Incomprehensible English

Whoever translated "pri sebi" as "at yourself" ("please clean up at yourself") is clearly not a native speaker of English - the phrase is so literally translated that it is meaningless to anyone who doesn't also know Slav languages. A more natural and above all clearer translation would be "please clean up your own place" - a preposition isn't even needed, since "place" is the direct object of "clean" ("place" lets you avoid specifying whether your "place" is a house, a room, an igloo or whatever). Of course, this doesn't make clear that Slovene uses a reflexive pronoun here - but English simply doesn't, and there's no getting away from it. "Pri" can't just be translated as "at" when talking about people. For instance, "pri nas Slovencih" can never be "at us Slovenes" - again, you have to rephrase ("among us Slovenes" or, better still, "here in Slovenia" or even "in this country"). Since "at" implies that people are on the receiving end of an action, often a violent or aggressive one ("look at him", "I bet they laughed at you", "she threw a plate at me", "the bear charged straight at us", "a lot of criticism has been aimed at us Slovenes"), you have to be extra careful when using it. Dutch-, German-, French- and Italian-speaking readers who make a habit of translating their own prepositions "bij", "bei", "chez" and "da" - the equivalents of "pri" - as "at" should also take note of this. There's a bar in Piran with the Italian name Da Noi - in English it would be called "Our place", and certainly not "At us".213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:44, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Apparent plural variations - three or four vs. five or more

I came to this page trying to find an explanation of the plural(s) in Slovene (beyond dual) for nouns. I would like to suggest expanding on the subject of plural(s). Example:

1 cigareta - (Singular) | 2 cigareti - (Dual) | 3 cigarete - (Plural up to 4) | 4 cigarete - (Plural up to 4) | 5 cigaret - (Plural 5 or more) | 6 cigaret - (Plural 5 or more), and so forth.

There seems to be one plural form for three and four of the same noun and another for five or more. Before someone scolds me for referring to this as a different plural rather than a different case or something, I admit I do not know the explanation. I learned Slovenian as a second language, but could not find anyone to give me a good explanation about this very common apparent change in plurals. "Eden dela pet pa gleda" is another common case. Here it's the verb that changes to singular (or appears to do so to my ignorant observation) rather than "gledajo" in plural.

Anyway, I just thought I would bring a courteous suggestion to expand on this area which does not seem to be documented anywhere that I could find. Thank you! Gabe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonskimojster (talk • contribs) 18:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

The plural for 5 or more of something is actually the genitive plural form. It's like this in all Slavic languages as far as I know. The reason is that originally the numbers 5 to 10 were nouns, while the numbers 1 to 4 were adjectives. So it's a bit like how you might say a pair of things, you'd also say 5 of things. Rua (mew) 20:58, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Sources

There are many potential sources on Google Scholar. Bearian (talk) 17:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)