Talk:Snir

River Snir (Senir): Israeli/Modern Hebrew name?

There seems to be no source for the name being used before the modern revival of spoken Hebrew. I guess the Naming Committee came up with it, because "Hatzbani" is nothing else than a slight Hebrification of Arabic Hasbani. They adopted a name from the Hebrew Bible used by the Arameans for Mount Hermon as a whole (Deuteronomy 3:9) or by the Israelites for one of its 3 peaks (1Chr 5:23). It's an informed guess; a source for that, anyone? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 11:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I will add a source for the kibbutz being named after the river. You are probably right that the renaming of the river was an Israeli official action, but article space is not the place to make conjectures without sources. I see "Nahal Snir" on a 1961 Hebrew map but can't find it earlier. Your Biblical additions about Senir=Hermon are correct but you don't even have a source for the river being named after it, let alone a relation to the kibbutz. So it is SYNTH and thus inadmissible. Zero^talk 12:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Zero0000. Did you stray onto kibbutz pages? A source is a rare occurrence. Just take a look at the largest section here. So removing a plausible bit for lack of source is... out of this playfield. You might as well remove 75% of all the content from kibbutz pages. I guess people just translate them from Hebrew, where sourcing might be less stringent, or it's handled like on German Wiki, where one places a few massive sources under Bibliography and very little inline.

Snir and Senir are not just 'the same in Hebrew', they're exactly the same thing, and the -e- is an English fad: no two consonants in a row at the beginning, for God's sake! Degania not Dgania, Zeruya/Zeruiah not Tzruya, Senir not Snir,... choose your example. Why, I don't know, it must have some historical roots.

In any case, giving at least a short explanation for the historical meaning of what is now the name of the kibbutz can't be wrong. Whatever Carta wrote, it was a bunch of kibbutz pioneers who came up with it while setting up camp, or of Naming Committee clerks who persuaded the founding members to choose the name, and Carta wasn't there. It might be the mountain and the Bible as much as the stream, or a combination thereof. I won't speculate, I'll just put in a brief, sourced info. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 18:26, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Just ran the Hebrew article through Google Translate. Guess what? They give the source of the name as the Amorites' name for Mount Hermon. No source indicated, of course. In such cases, it might well be that the editor had it from the horse's mouth, or is him/herself the horse's mouth. QED. Arminden (talk) 18:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

@Arminden: As far as I know, all populated places in Israel+Palestine are on my watchlist. Regarding "the same in Hebrew", you seem to have forgotten that it was you who put "one of the two Modern Hebrew names" into the article. I was entitled to correct your error (but the "e" is not a "fad", it is an optional representation of the sound indicated by the shva beneath the first letter). As for sourcing, of course it is hard to find sources but that difficulty is not an excuse to replace them by conjectures based on personal analysis. Finally, the reliability of a source does not depend on it being an eye-witness. Zero^talk 00:56, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@Zero0000:, I have no interest whatsoever in arguing about any of it, I'm not invested in any way in this specific place beyond some curiosity and my perception of "common sense" and logic, which must by definition be subjective. I offered something which I believe is useful, informative and logical, but if you feel you need to change it, go ahead. Of course I know I've put in "one of the two Modern Hebrew names" (Snir & Hatzbani), but what does that have to do with Snir being an ancient name for the dominating feature there, Mount Hermon? Fad or optional representation: pohtahtoh-powtaytow. Check the evolution: the first large contingent of European explorers and researchers in Ottoman Palestine were German speakers, and I honestly don't know if they ever used the e, but I presume they never have; British cartographers tended to add it; and with a certain process of Israeli emancipation, it's been partially dropped. About Wiki rules: I thought you know me by now and what I choose when facing a rules vs logic situation. On a major, controversial topic I go with the rules, but as I said, this is the type of page hardly anyone clicks on, and if they do, they hardly care for the rules. Again, do you intend to remove the entire core section, "History", because it's unsourced? Then you might need to go ahead and blank most of this entire category, if that does make sense to you. One can't lead an argument if the criteria don't match, aren't agreed upon. Different ballgame. Most everybody dealing with small villages & alike seems to happily let go of stringent Wiki rules; every kibbutz has an archive, but hardly any are online, so if somebody in the know posts plausible factlets on Wiki, most users are grateful for that - and know to take everything with a pinch of salt (which is advisable anyway, on the highly patrolled "big topic" pages as much as here, if for other reasons). Cheers, Arminden (talk) 08:30, 21 July 2022 (UTC)