Talk:Social stigma of obesity/Archive 1

Archive 1

Missing reference

I'm surprised to see that Everything You Know About Obesity Is Wrong missing entirely as a reference from this page, given that it's (to my understanding) by far the most influential/seminal journalistic work on obesity in recent times. Anyone who wants to improve this page might benefit from mining it for sources/material. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Rename article

I propose that the title of this article should be changed to "Weight Stigma." That is the term that is widely used within studies and research. Changing it will also make the article easier to find for the public. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.60.34 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• That can be done, but we'll need to see some evidence. A quick Google Book search suggests the term is used widely enough, but it's not overwhelming enough for me to just change it. And we already have a redirect for Weight stigma that leads here. Drmies (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Misleading information and misinterpretation of source information?

In the Characteristics section of this article, it is stated “the majority of the United States is overweight or obese” but the citation for this (a JAMA article) actually states that 1/3 can be characterized as obese and only when adjusted for age, does the article conclude that the “majority” are overweight or obese. Natelr13 (talk) 01:08, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

• Only 1/3rd are obese, but the majority are either overweight OR obese. ParticipantObserver (talk) 13:24, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2019 and 9 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Charmi98.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Disability and relationship to ableism

The lede of the article mentions disability services but nothing in the article relates the social stigma of obesity to the social stigma around disabilities, despite health being a supposed motivator for said stigma. is there a relationship between obesity and disability? if not, why are obese people given access to disability services? if so, shouldn't that be addressed somewhere in the article? I'm confused and unsure how to edit or if the connection between the two types of discrimination actually has secondary sources on it - I'll look up some and maybe edit this article later Feralcateater000 (talk) 16:48, 13 December 2021 (UTC) - Cooper Stoll, Laurie; Egner, Justine (9 March 2021). "We must do better: Ableism and fatphobia in sociology". Sociology Compass. 15 (4). doi:10.1111/soc4.12869. Retrieved 26 January 2022.

Again I don't know where or if this should be brought up in the article but the social stigma of obesity has been theorized as being similar to and able to be fought against using the social model of disability. I don't know if this is a fringe viewpoint or not so I haven't edited the article because I don't want to be adding original research by accident. If I added anything to the article I think I would put it under the theoretical explanations section. Health seems to be intrinsically linked to obesity, and health related stigma seems to fall under the category of ableism and the lede of the article even brings up disability but the meat of the article doesn't. Am I alone in this conceptualization? Feralcateater000 (talk) 15:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Proposed edits

Hello, We are students assigned to create/edit a wikipedia page for one of our courses. Below is a link to a proposed expansion of this article. We would love feedback! User:Rodrluis1989/sandbox — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodrluis1989 (talk • contribs) 02:14, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

@Laurier: It appears you accidentally deleted the link that the above text refers to. The proposed expansion of this article is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rodrluis1989/sandbox ParticipantObserver (talk) 13:31, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi ParticipantObserver, the shorter Wiki-link User:Rodrluis1989/sandbox works just as well. :-) Laurier (talk) 17:41, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah, sorry! I didn't see that. Thanks. ParticipantObserver (talk) 18:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Addition of Language and Race Subsections

Hey y’all, we are making edits as part of a class with the guidance of a Professor and a librarian and would like to add some subsections to the article regarding language use, specifically citing studies on terminology preferences within the fat activist community as well as the intersectionality between race and weight stigma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by C7MP (talk • contribs) 21:16, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 7 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Seems that the proposed title has been mostly opposed for undesirably changing the scope of the article. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 07:38, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

---

Social stigma of obesity → Fat shaming – I propose rename to fat shaming or fatphobia as there's a lexeme/term for this topic per WP:NOUN and WP:UCRN. Also body positive activists usually prefer "fat" over "obese" as it seems stigmatizing/medicalizing/manicomial — Tazuco ✉️ 20:09, 7 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 20:45, 15 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 05:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the content here was merged from Anti-fat bias and Weight stigma. Fatness is more socially and politically correct over obesity — Tazuco ✉️ 20:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: I don't think those are the same thing. "Shaming" seems more overt and direct, while a social stigma can be more pervasive, subtle and hidden. Moreover, "fat shaming" seems rather informal (and somewhat of a neologism) for an encyclopedic subject. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose: Use of the term "fat" generally increases stigma, and is therefore not preferred. Further, many of the sources cited in the article specifically deal with obesity (operationalized by a high BMI value) rather than adiposity. ParticipantObserver (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed change and generally think Fatphobia is a good change. This page has limited visibility as Social Stigma of Obesity is not part of the lexicon. Obese is overly medicalizing and fat activists do not prefer that term. Due to the very BMI being a very limited tool, those that are categorized as obese are not necessarily considered fat (the clique example is that The Rock is considered obese). I feel strongly that the word fat should be included in the title, as fat shaming and stigma toward fat folks is not defined by a specific weight cutoff. SarahLalevee (talk) 14:57, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, due encyclopedic language and source usage per User:ParticipantObserver. PrisonerB (talk) 14:59, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Many of the sources use a specific weight cutoff / BMI, and use the term "obese". I agree that there are reasons to think that that is not the ideal approach, since it counts The Rock as obese (though he and other bodybuilders are an exception to the rule). But WP:NOR; I don't think we can just discard the terminology used in the sources because we disagree with their approach. ParticipantObserver (talk) 15:36, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Not sure how fatphobia isn’t considered encyclopedic language, given that homophobia has a wiki page. I do agree that Fat Shaming is perhaps not formal language but a discriminatory social phobia is a well documented phenomenon. SarahLalevee (talk) 15:10, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I just want to note that the homophobia page also describes that term as problematic (and incorrect when interpreted literally). I don't think that we should use one problematic term simply because another problematic term is in use. ParticipantObserver (talk) 15:41, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Because of phobia? There's homomisia — Tazuco ✉️ 16:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I should also be noted that this page was previously named Weightism before the merge — Tazuco ✉️ 17:36, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I would support changing the page name back to Weightism. ParticipantObserver (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

• Just a note, the user who started this discussion is a globally blocked sock, see A8Y. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  CC the three significant contributors to this discussion: @BarrelProof@ParticipantObserver@PrisonerB PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:34, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  Well, if User:SarahLalevee withdraws their support here, we can wrap this up early. PrisonerB (talk) 09:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think this is still a discussion worth having, as the name of the article has been questioned for some time now (see 'Rename article' and 'Rename Article to "Anti-Fat Bias"' above). I think there is general agreement that 'social stigma of obesity' is not a fantastic name for the article. There has been opposition to all proposed alternatives so far, but is there any opposition to changing the name back to Weightism? ParticipantObserver (talk) 10:54, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

  Note that there is also a Sizeism page, which includes this topic but also height-based discrimination. ParticipantObserver (talk) 10:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I definitely do not withdraw my support. I feel very strongly that the name as it stands is very poor. Doing a quick Google Trends search, fatphobia has a much better hit rate than Weightism, which to my knowledge is not a word fat liberationists or fat activists use in their vernacular (whereas Fatphobia certainly is). Ultimately, Fatphobia is extremely pervasive as an issue and this page is very important to draw attention to it, and the title isn’t facilitating this. SarahLalevee (talk) 21:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• I think we all agree that the name as it stands if not good. But fatphobia redirects to this page, so I don't know that the difference in title is actually affecting visibility in any way. It is also not necessary for the usage in terms here to match the terms preferred by activists. ParticipantObserver (talk) 09:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

  And some fat activists are opposed to the term fatphobia because, among other things, the term suggests mental illness or an emotional response rather than willful discrimination. ParticipantObserver (talk) 10:46, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with SarahLalevee: I don't think the title 'Social stigma of obesity' is accurate, and neither is 'Weightism'. I'm not too sure about 'fatphobia' either, but it is a very generally used term. We all know this particular use of the term 'phobia' does not refer to the psychiatric use of the term, but to hate, although this type of hate is interlaced with some sort of fear. So, yeah, I think 'fatphobia' would be the best alternative. Laurier (talk) 15:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

'Fatphobia' is simply not appropriate in this instance. Like homophobia, the term fatphobia refers to negative attitudes and feelings--not to biased or discriminatory behaviors. These things are not synonymous. This article is primarily about the behaviors, not about the feelings associated with those behaviors (although there is some limited discussion of the feelings, mostly in the context of implicit biases). ParticipantObserver (talk) 16:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

'Fat shaming' at least refers to the behaviors, though that term is problematic for reasons detailed by myself and others in the above comments in this section. ParticipantObserver (talk) 16:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

• "not a word fat liberationists or fat activists use... this page is very important to draw attention to it". NPOV! --Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
• I'm not too fond of "weightism" since it seems like an unnecessary neologism, although it seems like an accurate description of the topic. The current title seems adequately descriptive and neutral. I'm not fond of "fatphobia" for the same reason and also because "phobia" implies fear, and this phenomenon does not involve fear. "Anti-fat bias" seems OK to me except for being somewhat less formal in tone than the current title. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: The Article's current name is a much more broad and fitting name and for the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.219.83.13 (talk) 04:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge proposal

There were already tags, but I propose that Obesity social stigma in television be merged into this. Note that I already merged, but I undid so that we could have a discusion NW1223(^{Howl at me}/_{My hunts}) 02:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the merge! Laurier (talk) 08:52, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

• Merge Not large or notable enough for its own article.★Trekker (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Anti-fat bias in television is quite notable. There are many, many articles/books/etc that discuss it. ParticipantObserver (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Oppose, given that the television article is quite well-referenced for a short article, and works as a stand-alone page, linked from Social stigma of obesity#In the media with a see also. Klbrain (talk) 04:01, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Closing, given the uncontested objections, having waited 6 months from the first such objection. Klbrain (talk) 15:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Rename Article to "Anti-Fat Bias"

Hi all, I propose that we change the title of the article from Social Stigma of Obesity to "Anti-Fat Bias." In accordance with various fat activists and fat liberation movements, the term obesity is overly clinical and stigmatizing in itself. Additionally, those who are categorized as "obese" in the BMI are not the only individuals who would be affected by Anti-Fat Bias. Those in the "overweight" category also can experience this. I think this is a better title than Weight Stigma as well because it highlights that the stigma is for people who are fat, which is far more explicit than simply stigma over one's weight (which can be a variety of different angles of stigma). Anti-fat bias is a more modern and clear term for what this article deals with, and would be a far more discoverable title for this page. If people feel as though "fatphobia" is a more relevant term I also think that could be considered. The term obesity simply does not coincide with the movement to end fatphobia etc and is seen as a derogatory term by fat activists (and is stigmatizing in itself). — Preceding unsigned comment added by SarahLalevee (talk • contribs) 18:55, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe social stigma against fat people? Discrimination against fat people? Feralcateater000 (talk) 23:23, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I prefer the "social stigma" title, since that is a broader term covering both bias and discrimination (where Anti-Fat Bias refers specifically to bias). The term "fat" is also considered overly stigmatizing in itself by some activists. "Weight stigma" would also include stigma towards those who are underweight, or normal weight, so I think we should only use that title if editors want the article to cover that broader range of concerns. "Fat people" is problematic (People-first language is generally preferable). Fatphobia seems OK but would be confusing for any who are unfamiliar with the term (as it sounds like it refers to a phobia per se). So, I don't currently see a better option here... Maybe "Social stigma of obesity and overweight"? ParticipantObserver (talk) 10:49, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Obesity is a medical condition. The stigma is against fatness, not obesity. We should rename this Social stigma of fatness EvergreenFir (talk) 17:10, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah if stigma against obesity is motivated by stigma against medical conditions it should fall under ableism, which this article implies in the lede but never actually elaborates on the connection - subsets of ableism have branched into their own articles before, such as the discrimination against autistic people article, but fatness contains both the medicalization implied by ‘obesity’ and the other forms of social stigma that this article discusses. Feralcateater000 (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

As I understand it, the stigma is both against fatness and against people with the medical condition of obesity. ParticipantObserver (talk) 10:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm just going to chime in here and suggest another maybe more neutral idea -- would Body size stigma be acceptable to folks? I personally think anti-fat bias is a good option, if it can stick; and if not, body size may stick?

@SarahLalevee Liliput000 (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

though "body size" may be too vague and then folks will want to include anti-thin stuff in here too Liliput000 (talk) 14:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

"Body size stigma" seems OK to me, if (and only if) we want the article to be broader and include discrimination against thinness/thin people. I'm not completely opposed to that, though it could get clunky. ParticipantObserver (talk) 15:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Please see the new section on this page called "Language & Identity." This should offer more clarity on why person first language is, in fact, not preferred, and obesity is a stigmatizing term. Fat appears to be stigmatizing for many as well when used in a derogatory way. Anti-Fat Bias does not do this, and I still feel as though Anti-Fat bias is the best name for this page. SarahLalevee (talk) 01:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

This section says that "using the word fat elicits a negative reaction" but does not qualify that with "when used in a derogatory way." My understanding is that the use of the word fat is generally not preferred. I have not seen evidence suggesting that "anti-fat" is better. ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:06, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sarah! I like the idea of anti-fat bias, too! I think that title aligns more with some of the literature about language preferences and it also is very clear about what the article is about Rac150 (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't see citations in the new language preferences section clarifying which term is preferred by most fat activists (the discussions are about what some activists think, but the opinions of individual activists should not be given undue weight), nor most people who are overweight (most of whom are not activists). There seems to be a stronger indication that the term "fat" generally increases stigma, and is therefore not preferred. Is there a good secondary source demonstrating which term is generally preferred by those who are overweight? ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:04, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

On re-reading the section, actually there are sources suggesting that the term "fat" is not preferred, and that the term "obesity" is also bad. But the current text does not suggest a preferred alternative. ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure if I agree that undue weight shouldn't be given to fat activists. From the studies, it seems as though fat is not a preferred term when scientific studies are done by people seeking to lose weight. This clearly skews the data, as these people likely have internalized anti-fat bias (sure, this could be an extrapolation). No alternative is provided. If all people do not like the term obese (from anecdotal data and scientific studies) and fat liberationists like the term fat but not obese, then doesn't fat seem to be a fat better descriptor for this page than obese? Perhaps we are in agreement that obese should not be used, but you think fat also shouldn't be used and don't see another alternative. SarahLalevee (talk) 14:25, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

"This clearly skews the data, as these people likely have internalized anti-fat bias (sure, this could be an extrapolation)." I would argue against using original research to decide what term we should use. It's not clear to me that the data is skewed, nor is it clear that people with internalized anti-fat bias necessarily prefer one term over another. My point is simply that the language preference research does not seem to provide an answer. If there were a clear preferred term, I'd certainly be in favor of using it.

But to complicate things, many of the sources do deal specifically with obesity as a medical condition. Because research often looks at "obese" and "overweight" in terms of BMI, using the term "fat" in those instances is actively misleading. It seems problematic to use any term other than those used by the studies because that is how the variables are operationalized. ParticipantObserver (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sarah as others have also mentioned I think your title suggestion 'anti-fat bias' is a really good idea. 98.204.69.206 (talk) 21:47, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure you do — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A420:45:4C25:9484:50C:9A5A:338 (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2022 (UTC)