Talk:The Solent

Solent Area

There is a couple of references to Selsey in the article. Strictly speaking Selsey is not in the Solent it is in the English Channel. Check Admiralty Chart 2036. Or put another way the Solent is to the west of Nab Tower, Selsey is to the east of the Nab Tower. Check any nautical reference and it will point this out, eg: The English Chnnnel pilot.Wilfridselsey (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Link farm

This article is over-linked. The references to sea,tidal, port, oak, forest, glacier give no detail pertinent to the subject, and just clutter and obscure the content.

Attempts to remove the clutter have upset people, so care must be taken resolving the problem

I agree, but it really isn't worth the bother if somebody likes it. Don't forget to sign your name, now, will you? Naturenet 18:23, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Expensive ferries

The article says that the Solent "is renowned as one of the most expensive waters to cross by ferry in the world". I'm curious about this. Can someone who knows about this expand on it? Why is it so expensive? How much does it cost? I assume this expense is on a per-distance basis; some ferries travel much further, and must be more expensive. CDC (talk) 23:29, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that this is hearsay and unverifably POV, although I'm open to persuasion. When I lived in Gosport exactly the same thing was said about the Gosport ferry. People just like to moan about ferry prices, despite the fact that the Solent is what makes the Island an Island, and if ferries were free the Island would just be a suburb of Portsmouth. Naturenet | Talk 12:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Some years later I actually did the research and demonstrated that by at least one measure, the Solent is not the most expensive. Naturenet | Talk 10:48, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

No Man's Land Fort

Shouldn't this article include some reference to No Man's Land Fort? The Seventh Taylor 19:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I now see that with a reference to Palmerston Forts this has effectively been done. The Seventh Taylor (talk) 03:33, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Should there be a Solent (disambiguation) page as per WP:D? Especially with this article having a section entitled "other uses of the name" (two of which are linked to other articles). Booglamay (talk) 15:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

How wide?

Any idea how wide it is at its narrowest point? --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Source Was River Frome?

Can someone expand upon that fact considering the River Frome doesn't even empty into the Solent, anymore? I'm trying to picture exactly how this could have been the case, and can't. --Criticalthinker (talk) 09:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. Isle of Purbeck and Isle of Wight were formerly connected, with a valley south of Bournemouth fed by the R. Frome (and Avon at Christchurch). The Needles are all that's left.78.151.93.49 (talk) 14:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge Geologies

This article has two sections titled "Geology". Suggest merging them. Magicmike (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Paper on flooding

http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4441/4/2/430/htm

Talks about the overal situation and a couple of past events.©Geni (talk) 16:12, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 21 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. There's no agreement that the "The" should be included per WP:THE. Cúchullain ^t/c 20:08, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

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• Solent → The Solent
• Solent (disambiguation) → Solent Struck in response to correct observation by Amakuru below. GregKaye 07:06, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

– Its called "The Solent". See: map. Britannica inc. also use The Solent (strait, English Channel). --Relisted. George Ho away from home (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2015 (UTC) GregKaye 18:29, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Ping members of WP:WikiProject Wight who may have a high level of acquaintance with the subject: Peeky44, Naturenet, NeilTarrant, Editor5807, Streona, Simply south, Robwebb, Debnigo, Greengolf17, Dainamo, Xhavnak, gcman105, Gordonofcartoon, BrayLockBoy, Raggz.

GregKaye 08:49, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

OS maps goes for "The Solent".©Geni (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support as per mapping, the 1945 map in the article also shows it as "The Solent"...Jokulhlaup (talk) 16:39, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:THE mentions two conditions under which we might put "The" in front of the name:

  1. If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article, the word with article can be used as the name of a page about that meaning, and the word without article can be used as the name of a separate page.
  2. If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not.

  (1) Clearly does not apply, there is not one entity called "The Solent" and another one called "Solent". (2) apparently does not apply either, looking at sources: [1][2][3][4][5] - none of these capitalise "The", it's always "... the Solent ...", or even omitting the definite article altogether. Since neither condition is met, I don't see a reason to change this. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:40, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

  Oh, and I didn't notice the second part of the multi-move before, but definitely oppose that too. The body of water is a clear primary topic for the term "Solent".  — Amakuru (talk) 13:05, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Amakuru In this case I do not think that WP:THE should be rigidly applied. In this I think that a general context WP:CRITERIA should be considered within which "Recognizability" is the first issue mentioned and "Consistency" is the fifth. I contend that in the vast majority of uses in which the strait is the topic, "The Solent" or "the Solent" is used.

One of the examples that that you have presented makes mention of a "Solent sandbank" and, in this case, "Solent" is used as an adjective to describe something else. It would have little difference to me describing "Love Me Do" as "a Beatles song" which would in no way change the fact that the group are most commonly known and recognised either as "the Beatles" or "The Beatles".

Here is a search on: "solent" AND (wight OR portsmouth OR strait) AND -southampton AND -university AND -river. Even with adjectival mention of such issues as "Solent hazzards" factored in, I think that the predominant use is either of "the Solent" or "The Solent".

Solent is ambiguous which is why we have Solent (disambiguation). In a contextualised sentence "Solent" may, at a stretch be ok. As a stand alone title it does not work. GregKaye 07:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Alright then, GregKaye, you've convinced me. You're right that "The" is almost never omitted from the title, so it does seem more recognisable. I therefore Support the move to The Solent, but continue to Oppose moving Solent (disambiguation) to Solent. The body of water is the primary topic, even with "the" omitted.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Oppose: There is no evidence that “The Solent” is a proper name, let alone a commonname. If it were then the Battle of the Solent would be The Battle of The Solent and sources don’t support that. If it were Lee-on-the-Solent would be Lee-on-The-Solent and sources don’t support that. In most references to the Mary Rose, sunk in the Solent in 1545, “the Solent’’ appears in running text. Additionally, a JSTOR search reveals overwhelmingly, “the Solent” is used in running text in all manner of journal articles. There is also a point of potential confusion by using “The Solent” as Vaughn Williams has an album entitled “The Solent” (2013) [6] --Mike Cline (talk) 13:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Mike Cline I would alternatively propose that the fact that Ralph Vaughan Williams has music published under the album title The Solent can be taken as further evidence that "the Solent" is recognisably and I dare say commonly known as "the Solent" or "The Solent". The "Product Description" of the album presents: "... The Impressions, recorded here for the first time, describe three natural beauties of England - Burley Heath, Harnham Down and The Solent. ..."..

You make valid mention of Lee-on-the-Solent but please consider the results of a similarly phrased search on "on the beatles". These texts are displayed on the first page of the search as: "Mark Arnold Picks on the Beatles", "which on The Beatles' song", "a good promotional job at all on the Beatles", "Early Influences on the Beatles" and "a pun on the Beatles' Merseyside origins". An instance of adjectival use presented "picked up rather late on the Beatles' success". There is even more ambiguity on "Solent" with subjects of more greater notability than the Vaughan Williams' album being listed at Solent (disambiguation). GregKaye 08:22, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

oppose 'the Solent' is not a proper name. It takes 'the' like any other proper names but 'the' is not part of the name, no more than it is for the Pennines, the Weald or any similar geographical feature. You need only look at the external links to this article to find it used without 'the'. That the 'predominant use' is with 'the' is irrelevant. WP policy is to not include 'the' unless it is part of the name or it changes the meaning somehow if its omitted.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 14:19, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

JohnBlackburne Wikipedia policy is to use commonly recognized names. What would you have done with the article on the Beatles? GregKaye 21:53, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy on the use of 'the' in titles is here: WP:THE, and is clear, 'the' should only be included if omitting it changes the meaning or if it is part of the name. Neither is the case here. For The Beatles on the other hand 'the' is normally part of the name – see e.g. their logo from their drumkit – but we are not here discussing the self-chosen name of a band, but a geographical feature which there are far more relevant examples. I mentioned two above, here is another, the Wirral Peninsula, known almost universally locally as the 'Wirral'.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

JohnBlackburne To the right are the two maps as found at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Solent both with the name of the subject clearly presented:

The "their logo from their drumkit" is all caps. On this basis would you advocate a move from: The Beatles → THE BEATLES? Of course not. In any case, in Wikipedia we go by commonly recognizable name not official name. Please also see image search results on: "with the beatles", "on the beatles", "of the beatles" and anything else editors would like to try.

In any conception of WP:UCRN, if something is most commonly known by a name, inclusive of situations where it may be "known almost universally locally" by that particular name, then that is the name that we should use - no exceptions Here is a books search on: the hague. Results from the first page of results (where "the hague" appears mid text but not used adjectivally) are:

• From Nuremberg to The Hague: The Future of International ...
• Women at the Hague: The International Congress of Women ...
• Justice Beyond the Hague: Supporting the Prosecution of ...
• Interim Measures in The Hague Court: An Attempt at a Scrutiny
• 14th Triennial Meeting, The Hague, 12-16 September 2005: ...
• A Guide to the Hague and Hague-Visby Rules
• Living in the Hague, Holland

Should we move The Hague → Hague or would that be vague? See: Hague (disambiguation)

(the adjectival uses presented: "... the Hague Agreement ..." and "... the Hague Tribunal ...")

Solent is also ambiguous and yet this is easily rectified. It is most commonly known as "The Solent"/"the Solent".

GregKaye 07:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

how is it ambiguous? Whether 'the Solent' or 'Solent' it is perfectly clear what it means. Or what else, on reading it, might a reader think it to be?--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 10:28, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Ultimately, whether it is called Solent or The Solent depends entirely on what map you read. This move isn't needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrayLockBoy (talk • contribs) 16:45, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

BrayLockBoy very true, solent map. In sequence the labels or titles are: 1. "The Coast of the Solent ..."; 2. no marking; 3, "THE SOLENT"; 4. one inland marking saying "Solent" with "The Solent" repeated on the associated page; 5. "WEST SOLENT" and "EAST SOLENT"; 6. no marking; 7. no marking; 8. "THE SOLENT"; 9. no marking; 10. "THE SOLENT"; 11. "West Solent", "East Solent", 12. "The Solent"; 13. "The Solent"; 14. no marking; 15. "The Solent"; 16. "The Solent"; 17. "THE SOLENT"; 18 "THE SOLENT"; 19. no marking. All map markings in the sea indicated "The Solent" with the exception of a minority specifying "West Solent" and "East Solent". GregKaye 19:49, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment I admit I don't know a great deal about naming conventions and use of "the" on Wikipedia, but from a local perspective, no-one refers to it as "Solent", it is always referred to as "The Solent". Editor5807^speak 18:03, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. The usage of capitalizing the the does seem to be mixed but lowercase does seem more common: [7], [8], [9], [10]. Zarcadia (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

In general, it would seem as if The Solent is only referred to without 'The' if 'Solent' is part of a wider name. Take BBC Radio Solent for example. 'Solent' on its own also seems to be favoured in the names of ships. However, both in colloquial speech and on maps, when referring to the tract of water itself, it is always The Solent. BrayLockBoy (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

BrayLockBoy did your 21:03, 1 May 2015 edit imply support? GregKaye 05:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Flooding of the Solent

The text currently implies that rivers arising from the melting of the last ice sheet caused flooding and scouring of the Solent - beyond permafrost, there was no ice within the catchment so this seems unlikely. Where is the evidence? Secondly glacial rebound is not about an east-west axis but, reflecting the amassing of ice over northern England and Wales too, is more of a NE-SW axis. How much of this is covered by the cited book by Murphy? cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Merge South Hampshire into the Solent article

I propose that the content from the South Hampshire article should be merged into here. The political application of the term "Solent" corresponds to the South Hampshire entity. For example, the "City Deal" and prospective combined authority was named Solent. Information on Climate and demographics will be identical. Jonjonjohny (talk) 09:30, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

oppose I don't think they should be merged they are two distinct things. One is the urban area around Southampton and Portsmouth and the other is a strait. I don't see how a strait can really have demographics. Eopsid (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Oppose The Solent is a geomorphological feature, South Hampshire is a group of administrative areas. The two are not comparable, nor is one a part of the other. Naturenet | Talk 00:26, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 2 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:55, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

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Solent → The Solent – "The" is an integral part of the name per the Ordnance Survey (note that is uses "Solent, The" becuase that's how things are sorted there, just like here we will defaultsort it in this way). Per WP:WIAN and WP:CONSISTENCY we should generally follow the Ordnance Survey (unless a more specific name is preferred (say for idiomatic reasons), such as per WP:UKDISTRICTS or WP:NATURAL). The Swale and The Wash are other similar example of a geographical features that have "The" in them. Note that the Isle of Wight is without the "The" but The Needles isn't even though the Emirates Spinnaker Tower uses "the Needles" in running text and as noted above "the Beatles" is also used sometimes in running text. WP:THE is useful in situations where its unclear but a reliable nationally used map makes it clear that the "The" is part of the name. Encyclopædia Britannica also uses "The Solent" and indeed "The Solent" is used in running text along with "The Needles" but "the Isle of Wight" is used for the island. Thus per WP:COMMONNAME "Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register". The last RM included moving the DAB to the base name, I have omitted that in this RM so that "Solent" can continue to redirect here but if people think the DAB should be moved then I'm OK with that. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:27, 2 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisted. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:37, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Agree with User:Crouch, Swale.SovalValtos (talk) 10:13, 3 August 2019 (UTC) SupportSovalValtos (talk) 05:31, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Agree. Proposer's reasoning is sound. Davidships (talk) 08:30, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support - I was persuaded to support this move by GregKaye, back in 2015, having initially opposed, and I don't see much reason to change my position now. The body of water is almost never referred to simply as "Solent", always "The Solent", so even though the definite article is not rigorously capitalised in sources, it seems reasonable to include it here. FWIW The Maritimes is a similar example, and a bold move on my part to change that to "Maritimes" was later reversed. Maintain a redirect from "Solent" to "The Solent" though, it is still the primary topic.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

  I'd say that usage in maps is (as with other naming cases) an excellent way of determining if a word is actually part of a name or if it just comes before or after it simply as normal grammar. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Support - Given the usage by OS and EB...Jokulhlaup (talk) 09:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support as per the MAP USED IN THE VERY ARTICLE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

GregKaye 19:17, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

premature closure

The above section should not have been closed so hastily, with no attempt to generate further discussion. What does "non-admin closure" mean? Higher up this page the section "Requested move 21 April 2015" shows that there was opposition to moving the page, with valid reasons. The name of this body of water is simply "Solent", even though it is often preceded by the definite article in continuous prose. See the English Channel, the Strait of Dover or the Bristol Channel for similar examples. Note also that we have Solent University, Solent NHS Trust, Solent Airport, Solent Rescue, Solent Sky, Solent TV, Solent Way, none of which include "the" in their name. --92.40.134.248 (talk) 15:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ammarpad: your close was clearly in good faith and valid, following the proper exposure period and the unanimous consensus of 3 participants. However, it was a marked change from the earlier discussion in 2015. Would you be prepared to reopen the discussion and ping the previous participants? I haven't checked how many of those editors are still active. – Fayenatic London 21:55, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply bad faith. Sorry if it came across that way. --92.40.134.248 (talk) 22:23, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: When Amakuru asked me on my talkpage I was about to reopen it but then he said there's no need since he understood he actually supported the older nomination. I've to admit, even after that, I thought maybe relist is the most appropriate way to go anyway, but what deterred me was that RM is really suffering from lack of participation there's a very good chances that it'd got no comments apart from the above two. And seeing that already two experienced users agreed with the nom I concluded to close it. Now since you objected, I am reopening it, and pinging the participants of prior discussions. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I suppose given the (rather even) split in the previous RM that given this was questioned reopening and relisting is reasonable. The request wasn't closed prematurely, it was open for 8 days which is longer than the minimum 7 days with all 3 (including the nom) supporting. The previous request was closed as "No move" which probably should have been "No consensus" given that sources had shown "The" to be part of the name even though (like The Beatles) sometimes use a lower case "t". 4 (including the nom) supported while 3 opposed. English Channel, Strait of Dover and Bristol Channel do not have "The" on OS maps so aren't comparable. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:12, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• Reopened per objection above. Please the following pinged participants should take note: @GregKaye, Geni, Jokulhlaup, Amakuru, Mike Cline, JohnBlackburne, BrayLockBoy, Editor5807, Zarcadia, Crouch, Swale, SovalValtos, and Davidships: – Ammarpad (talk) 05:36, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• Still support, as above. Davidships (talk) 10:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• Lurked, didn't vote as I thought it was all sorted out. Let that be a lesson. But support. Naturenet | Talk 18:49, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• I don't have anything further to add.©Geni (talk) 14:03, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
• And in response to the Lee-on-the-Solent argument there is also Walton-on-the-Naze/The Naze. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)