Talk:Somali languages

Rendille-Boni

This page was created using Rendille-Boni languages as a model. (Taivo (talk) 12:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC))

Somali languages vs. Macro-Somali vs. Eastern Omo–Tana

@TaivoLinguist: The distinction between the subject of this page (the so-called "Somali languages"), Macro-Somali languages (Somaloid) and Eastern Omo–Tana is unclear. According to Omo–Tana languages, Eastern Omo–Tana is synonymous with Macro-Somali, and accordingly, Eastern Omo–Tana languages (as well as Eastern Omo-Tana languages with hyphen) redirects there; however, the Macro-Somali article does not mention the term "Eastern Omo–Tana" at all. However, the infobox here links to Eastern Omo-Tana at Glottolog, which does not recognise a comparable subgroup of Eastern Omo-Tana. According to the "more genealogically focused approach" of Ehret & Ali (1984) at Somali languages § Other groupings, Baiso, Rendille and Aweer are also part of this subgroup, which would however make "Somali languages" virtually synonymous with Macro-Somali. When it comes to classifying language families and their branches, however, genealogical approaches are all that is truly relevant, not ethnic (self-)perception or labeling. This implies that "Somali languages" is spurious and only Macro-Somali aka Somaloid aka Eastern Omo–Tana is a genuine node. The Somali language (Somali IV in the classification of Ehret & Ali) is then simply a member of this branch, without any intervening branch comparable to "Somali languages", given that Aweer/Boni is no less closely related to Somali than Garre is. Also, many infoboxes are divided between recognising either Macro-Somali or the "Somali languages", and some list non-linguistic categories such as Digil. There is a real chaos here. I suspect that "Somali languages" (whose title is additionally confusing) should be merged into Macro-Somali languages, as yet another effective synonym, whose scope does not even significantly differ. The only difference is that this article, "Somali languages", is older than the article Macro-Somali languages. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 09:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

This is indeed rather chaotic in sources too; there is however a tentative contrast in the direction that "Somali languages" is the set of varieties that could be or have been argued to be dialects of a single Macro-Somali language. This corresponds largely also with Heine's phonologically defined "Dad" group. Since Baiso remains a bit of a loose cannon, the only language variety that is definitely Macro-Somali but not one of the "Somali languages" would be then Rendille. Such a minor division between "Somali languages" and "Somaloid languages" would probably not require its own article entirely though.

Ehret & Ali's classification is purely lexicostatistic, and does not seem to have been well accepted in later sources (to me it seems that at least their Baiso–Jiiddu unit is nonsense and just reflects a handful of loanwords). I'd have to do a re-lookaround for if there's explicit critique of their system. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 14:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You'll note that I created this page 16 years ago (as a stub, I believe) and haven't touched it since. 16 years ago I was using Ethnologue as a model. Since then Glottolog has become a superior source. My only comment is to follow Glottolog since Hammarström and his team are exceptionally careful about following sound historical comparative methods in evaluating whatever sources are available in determining genealogical relationships. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)