Talk:Somali literature/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Opening heading
There are two problems with this page. The article states that Somali lit starts in the 1300s, but this is using Arabic dating, not Wiki dating. It should say, I believe, that it starts in the 1800s. Second, the reference to the Somali author of Hanafi literature is, I believe, incorrect, although widely stated on the internet. I believe it is confusing the fourteenth-century author Shaykh Uthman bin Ali al-Seylai with the nineteenth-century Somali author Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Ahmad al-Zayla’i. Please see Said Samatar's work, for instance the chapter on the author In the Shadow of Conquest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.238.235 (talk) 15:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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Fair use rationale for Image:Lionstale.jpg
Image:Lionstale.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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Somali Literature
"Somalia was dubbed by the 19th century British explorer Richard Burton in his book 'First Footsteps in East Africa as a nation of bards"
I was a bit confused. You may want to say Sir Richard Francis Burton, because Wikipedia links the name to the 20th century actor!
Thanks for the article.
Richard Burton quote
The text of the book mentioned in the article: First Footsteps. . . is available online. I did a search and wasn't able to find the quote that is included in the article. Are you certain this quote is correct?
88.88.201.161 15:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Coldiidb.jpg
Image:Coldiidb.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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Requested move 2010
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Somalian literature → Literature of Somalia — Per the standard nomenclature, which lists the country name. Middayexpress (talk) 21:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Support per nom --Extra 999 (Contact me + contribs) 15:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Another requested move 2011
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Moved to "Somalian literature" per consensus reached in discussion below. R'n'B (call me Russ) 11:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Literature of Somalia → Somali literature — Relisted. fuzzy510 (talk) 07:30, 3 March 2011 (UTC) The standard title format for national literature articles is "Adjectival literature". The appropriate adjectival in this case is Somali rather than Somalian, as demonstrated by the fact that "Somalian literature" has only two hits on Google Books while "Somali literature" has more than a thousand. For comparison, "Literature of Somalia" has 47 hits.Relisting to confirm consensus on Somalian literature. Andrewa (talk) 21:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC) --Neelix (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Somali is an ethnic group. Is this ethic literature, or the literature of a country? 65.95.14.96 (talk) 07:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - The Somali people are an ethnic group, but "Somali" is the most common adjectival of Somalia as outlined here. At the moment, this article appears to assume that the literature of the ethnic group and the literature of the country are synonymous, although this is obviously not the case. As it is more common to discuss national literatures rather than ethnic literatures, I recommend that this article be set out as pertaining to the national literature and treat literature of the Somali diaspora in a subsection. Neelix (talk) 14:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support per comments above. walk victor falk talk 21:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Breton and Catalan literature are mentioned in French literature, for analogy. walk victor falk talk 21:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support per proposal. This can be checked in Category:Literature by nationality. Flamarande (talk) 13:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support per nom. However, it is better to move the page to "Somalian literature" rather than "Somali literature" since it was agreed to some time back to use "Somalian" as the standard denonym on most other pages (the category pages, in particular) so as not to elicit confusion with the eponymous ethnic group. Middayexpress (talk) 18:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
- Question - Would you mind linking to that discussion? "Somalian" is a very uncommon adjectival for Somalia; there are only 2 Google Books hits for "Somalian literature" but more than a thousand for "Somali literature". Neelix (talk) 22:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- The term "Somali literature" indeed draws more Google hits than "Somalian literature". However, most of those primarily pertain to the ethnic group itself, not to the nationality. The distinction (which was discussed in part here [1]) is important because Somalis "naturally' inhabit many different countries, much like Kurds do (c.f. Greater Somalia). So the alternative denonym "Somalian" [2] allows us to both differentiate between ethnic Somalis that inhabit Somalia proper versus, say, those who reside in the Somali Region of Ethiopia, and to draw a distinction between ethnic Somalis and other non-ethnically Somali citizens of Somalia (such as the Bajuni). Middayexpress (talk) 19:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion to which you have linked is a very short discussion on a user talk page; I don't think that should be considered to constitute community concensus. While I like the idea of using one adjectival to refer to the country and another to refer to the ethnic group, it doesn't look like that is standard practice, either outside Wikipedia or in. When referring to the country, "Somali" is by far the more common adjectival to use, and the only source I can find that discusses the difference between the two adjectivals states that "the difference between 'Somali' and 'Somalian' does not always find a concensus." - [3] If we were to switch the article titles so that "Somalian" was used to refer to the country and "Somali" was used to refer to the ethnic group, that would appear to be a wikineologism. Do you know of any reliable sources outside Wikipedia that make a clear distinction between the two terms? Neelix (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion I linked you to was actually the culmination of a much longer series of discussions wherein a consensus was reached and implemented across various articles (you can contact that admin for the details if you like). There is also no Wikipedia policy forbidding the use of separate terms for a country's denonym versus that nation's largest ethnic group (after which the country was named in the first place), especially when that ethnic group actually inhabits many different countries. The denoynm "Somalian" is also hardly a neologism. It's actually the nation's alternate denonym [4], just as the term "Somali" primarily refers to the ethnic group after which the country was named to begin with (not the other way around; the ethnic group first acquired that name centuries before the nation "Somalia" ever came into being). Neither use constitutes a neologism or anything approaching it. At any rate, if this article is named "Somali literature", then a phrase will have to be added to the intro clarifying the fact that the article actually pertains to the ethnic group only. That is, unless of course notable examples of non-ethnic Somali literature from Somalia are added to the article (because as it is, the article is already only about the literature of the Somali ethnic group). Middayexpress (talk) 19:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- I checked with Good Olfactory, the administrator you mentioned, and the only discussion s/he knows about is this one about category names. Naming conventions for category names are different than for article names because category names are chosen specifically for the internal organization of the project, whereas article names need to conform to WP:Common name. When I said that it would be a wikineologism to artificially enforce a distinction between the terms "Somali" and "Somalian," I was not suggesting that either of those terms is itself a neologism; rather, it is the distinction that is a neologism. No reliable sources seem to have made this distinction by designating the term "Somali" to the ethnic group and "Somalian" to the country. It would therefore be original research for us to enforce that distinction. Neelix (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the main discussion; and as you can see, a consensus was reached. It also most certainly is not original research to use the term "Somalian" as a denonym because the term is a denonym to begin with [5]. According to WP:NOR, "the term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources." I just linked you to a sourced passage identifying the term "Somalian" as a common denonym for people from Somalia. Ergo, it is not original research. The same goes for the term "Somali", which originally and still primarily refers to the ethnic group that lent the country its name in the first place (not the other way around) [6]:
- I checked with Good Olfactory, the administrator you mentioned, and the only discussion s/he knows about is this one about category names. Naming conventions for category names are different than for article names because category names are chosen specifically for the internal organization of the project, whereas article names need to conform to WP:Common name. When I said that it would be a wikineologism to artificially enforce a distinction between the terms "Somali" and "Somalian," I was not suggesting that either of those terms is itself a neologism; rather, it is the distinction that is a neologism. No reliable sources seem to have made this distinction by designating the term "Somali" to the ethnic group and "Somalian" to the country. It would therefore be original research for us to enforce that distinction. Neelix (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion I linked you to was actually the culmination of a much longer series of discussions wherein a consensus was reached and implemented across various articles (you can contact that admin for the details if you like). There is also no Wikipedia policy forbidding the use of separate terms for a country's denonym versus that nation's largest ethnic group (after which the country was named in the first place), especially when that ethnic group actually inhabits many different countries. The denoynm "Somalian" is also hardly a neologism. It's actually the nation's alternate denonym [4], just as the term "Somali" primarily refers to the ethnic group after which the country was named to begin with (not the other way around; the ethnic group first acquired that name centuries before the nation "Somalia" ever came into being). Neither use constitutes a neologism or anything approaching it. At any rate, if this article is named "Somali literature", then a phrase will have to be added to the intro clarifying the fact that the article actually pertains to the ethnic group only. That is, unless of course notable examples of non-ethnic Somali literature from Somalia are added to the article (because as it is, the article is already only about the literature of the Somali ethnic group). Middayexpress (talk) 19:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion to which you have linked is a very short discussion on a user talk page; I don't think that should be considered to constitute community concensus. While I like the idea of using one adjectival to refer to the country and another to refer to the ethnic group, it doesn't look like that is standard practice, either outside Wikipedia or in. When referring to the country, "Somali" is by far the more common adjectival to use, and the only source I can find that discusses the difference between the two adjectivals states that "the difference between 'Somali' and 'Somalian' does not always find a concensus." - [3] If we were to switch the article titles so that "Somalian" was used to refer to the country and "Somali" was used to refer to the ethnic group, that would appear to be a wikineologism. Do you know of any reliable sources outside Wikipedia that make a clear distinction between the two terms? Neelix (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- The term "Somali literature" indeed draws more Google hits than "Somalian literature". However, most of those primarily pertain to the ethnic group itself, not to the nationality. The distinction (which was discussed in part here [1]) is important because Somalis "naturally' inhabit many different countries, much like Kurds do (c.f. Greater Somalia). So the alternative denonym "Somalian" [2] allows us to both differentiate between ethnic Somalis that inhabit Somalia proper versus, say, those who reside in the Somali Region of Ethiopia, and to draw a distinction between ethnic Somalis and other non-ethnically Somali citizens of Somalia (such as the Bajuni). Middayexpress (talk) 19:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
"The term “Somalian” refers to Republic of Somalia nationals, while “Somali” refers to an ethnic group in the Horn of Africa."
- There is therefore nothing wrong with using the term "Somalian" as a denonym to differentiate between articles that pertain to the nationality versus the Somali ethnic group (the latter of which, again, naturally inhabits various neighboring countries). That said, either we name the article "Somalian literature" per the consensus, or a phrase will have to be added to the intro clarifying the fact that the article actually pertains to the ethnic group only. Middayexpress (talk) 22:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for providing the link to a reliable source making the distinction. I agree that Somalian literature is the more appropriate title for this article. Neelix (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- No prob. Middayexpress (talk) 18:58, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for providing the link to a reliable source making the distinction. I agree that Somalian literature is the more appropriate title for this article. Neelix (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- There is therefore nothing wrong with using the term "Somalian" as a denonym to differentiate between articles that pertain to the nationality versus the Somali ethnic group (the latter of which, again, naturally inhabits various neighboring countries). That said, either we name the article "Somalian literature" per the consensus, or a phrase will have to be added to the intro clarifying the fact that the article actually pertains to the ethnic group only. Middayexpress (talk) 22:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Consensus on Somalian literature
I believe that consensus has been reached above on the new title Somalian literature, however as this reverses a recent RM and several interested parties have yet to comment I am relisting to allow any objections to be raised. Andrewa (talk) 21:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Bah, 'Somali literature' or 'Somalian literature' is the same to me. Both are way better than 'Literature of Somalia'. Flamarande (talk) 12:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requesting wider attention
I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature#Article_review. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.
Posting message here too for neutrality sake
Thanks and greetings