Talk:Somalis in Pakistan
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Undue weight, overref
editConsiderable undue weight has been placed on protests by a few secondary migrants. These demonstrations were ad-hoc, mainly took place several years ago, were against local UNHCR representatives, and aimed to improve the quality and consistency of social services. They were also mainly held by "a group of Somali women [who] protested outside the office of a UNHCR-partner NGO in Islamabad, complaining that they had not received their monthly allowance", as clearly noted in one of the links [1]. Even if the demonstrations had been held by more of the secondary migrants, that still would amount to a minority of the small Somali community in Pakistan, which mainly consists of students (as the refugee and asylum figures clearly show). One citation is also sufficient per WP:OVERREF. Middayexpress (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Look, I appreciate your effort but you really need to take a step back and review some of the edits you're making here. I don't know if there's an element of nationalism behind these edits. Just because you perceive something as presenting an issue in a negative light is not a reason to remove or censor information. This sort of editing comes under WP:IDONTLIKEIT. There are obviously issues which Somali refugees living in Pakistan face. These issues have been more than adequately discussed in reliable sources and they cannot be censored just because of they go against a POV. I repeat, your removal of content has no policy-based justification. And btw WP:UNDUE only applies when the article content gives too much weight to one particular topic, but that is not even the case here. In fact, the article mentions nothing about their situation and only citations have been used. Getting those citations outta the article too is nothing other than WP:POV editing. Mar4d (talk) 14:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- I cleaned up the page, which was in spots written in an unencylopedic tone, had undue weight issues (explained below), and contained a number of facts that were improperly attributed. You both thanked me for these efforts yesterday and awarded me a "Pakistan Barnstar of National Merit". Per WP:OVERREF, I then today fixed some citation clutter, wherein several citations were needlessly appended to already sourced phrases. That said, the Somali community in Pakistan are not all refugees; they are overwhelmingly students. Of the 4,000 to 8,000 individuals that were members of the community circa mid-2012 (i.e. at the height of the population; it has since decreased considerably in size to a mere 2,500), only 535 were registered as refugees and 37 as asylum-seekers. That's 13.375% to 6.6875% that were refugees and 0.925% to 0.4625% that were asylum seekers. The remaining 85.7% to 92.3875% of Somalis in Pakistan were pupils. This is what the actual data shows. Ad-hoc protests by a small subset of those few refugees and asylum seekers (who are complaining about their own personal UNHCR provisions) is under no definition representative of the community as a whole. Most Somalis in Pakistan (i.e. the remaining 85%+) do not even receive any such UNHCR provisions; they are instead supported by their parents based in the Middle East. Undue weight should therefore indeed not be placed on this, whether in the form of citation clutter or otherwise. Middayexpress (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, but the article needs more citations and those links can at least be used for exactly that purpose: adding more references to the article. It is true that not all Somalis in Pakistan are refugees, but those few who are have received some coverage in reliable sources and it is necessary to mention that. WP:OVERREF can't be used as a reason to cut or censor content, that is actually going against the very purpose of editing which is to improve the article's quality and content by collecting all sources mentioning the Somali community in Pakistan. Those few links at least should be used to support the single-sentence statement that those with refugee status have attempted to raise their concerns, which was done in my version of the article. The links that have been removed are in my opinion entirely relevant for an article that could do with more references. Mar4d (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- Refugees and asylum seekers make up a tiny portion of what is already a very small community. A few individuals within that tiny portion have demonstrated a couple of times over social services. This is noted with the sourced phrase "members of the community sought to improve the quality and consistency of these services by raising their concerns with the relevant authorities". Appending additional references after that is unnecessary and creates citation clutter/overref. In the process, it also places undue weight on the protests, which is not warranted by their ad-hoc nature and the diminutive size of the refugee and asylum seeker community subset. As an analogy, most Pakistanis in Somalia have traditionally been involved in retail trade. A small subset of those immigrants, however, are wanted militants affiliated with the Al-Shabaab and Al-Qaeda insurgent groups. A number of those militants have at various times protested and leveled threats against the Somalian authorities and the international community. This too might be notable, but it would be inappropriate to place undue weight on it for the same reasons. Middayexpress (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, but the article needs more citations and those links can at least be used for exactly that purpose: adding more references to the article. It is true that not all Somalis in Pakistan are refugees, but those few who are have received some coverage in reliable sources and it is necessary to mention that. WP:OVERREF can't be used as a reason to cut or censor content, that is actually going against the very purpose of editing which is to improve the article's quality and content by collecting all sources mentioning the Somali community in Pakistan. Those few links at least should be used to support the single-sentence statement that those with refugee status have attempted to raise their concerns, which was done in my version of the article. The links that have been removed are in my opinion entirely relevant for an article that could do with more references. Mar4d (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- I cleaned up the page, which was in spots written in an unencylopedic tone, had undue weight issues (explained below), and contained a number of facts that were improperly attributed. You both thanked me for these efforts yesterday and awarded me a "Pakistan Barnstar of National Merit". Per WP:OVERREF, I then today fixed some citation clutter, wherein several citations were needlessly appended to already sourced phrases. That said, the Somali community in Pakistan are not all refugees; they are overwhelmingly students. Of the 4,000 to 8,000 individuals that were members of the community circa mid-2012 (i.e. at the height of the population; it has since decreased considerably in size to a mere 2,500), only 535 were registered as refugees and 37 as asylum-seekers. That's 13.375% to 6.6875% that were refugees and 0.925% to 0.4625% that were asylum seekers. The remaining 85.7% to 92.3875% of Somalis in Pakistan were pupils. This is what the actual data shows. Ad-hoc protests by a small subset of those few refugees and asylum seekers (who are complaining about their own personal UNHCR provisions) is under no definition representative of the community as a whole. Most Somalis in Pakistan (i.e. the remaining 85%+) do not even receive any such UNHCR provisions; they are instead supported by their parents based in the Middle East. Undue weight should therefore indeed not be placed on this, whether in the form of citation clutter or otherwise. Middayexpress (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
External links modified
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