Talk:Songhoyboro Ciine

Merging

@Sagotreespirit and Ibdawud: as I understand it everyone agrees that this article and Songhay proper need to be merged. There is just some uncertainty over the title. Regardless all the content should go here as the oldest page, and if no one objects to the rename then a request can be put in at WP:RM/TR to do a round robin move of this page to Songhay proper in order to preserve the history. Alternatively since Ibdawud is the author of the only substantive content there, they could do the merge of all the information here themselves, and then request a WP:G6 deletion of the redirect as the history won't be needed for attribution and anyone can than manually move this page to that title without assistance. Thoughts, objections? 119.59.121.172 (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ibdawud: You can just add information into Kaado language, and then you can create a redirect from Songhay proper to Kaado language. There are no other contributors besides those by Ibdawudy today, so no technical move request is needed. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 17:57, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Sagotreespirit: as I understand Ibdawud believes that Songhay proper should be the title, but this page can't be moved there now without either a g6/g7 deletion which could be requested if they merge the material here themselves to preserve attribution, or if someone else merges the content in then through a round-robin WP:RM/TR move to preserve history. 119.59.121.172 (talk) 18:02, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

We need a published source that says Kaado is a derogatory name. There are many publications using Kaado as the name, so I wouldn't move it unless Ibdawud can provide a citation. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 18:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

If a move is contentious, that means use WP:RM. So the interim solution is to merge the content here since forking is almost always the wrong answer, actually I will probably just redirect and let Ibdawud do the actual merging so we won't have to worry about attribution issues. I don't really have an opinion on the title yet, maybe I'll look into it but most likely I won't, anyway RM is the correct procedure. 119.59.121.172 (talk) 18:12, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

These are some citation. Please read the last paragraph on page 2 ref>Southern Songhay Speech Varieties In Niger:A Sociolinguistic Survey of the Zarma, Songhay, Kurtey, Wogo, and Dendi Peoples of Niger (PDF), Byron & Annette Harrison and Michael J. Rueck Summer Institute of Linguistics B.P. 10151, Niamey, Niger Republic, 1997, retrieved 2021-02-23</ref>

Please on this next Citation.. take note of the map and the labeling of each Region and the languages spoken there; Zarma, a Songhai language, retrieved 2021-02-23</ref>

Next Citation: This is a History Dictionary of Niger on google maps. Please scroll down to "S" -"SONGHAY" you'll get a fair understanding.

Next Citation: This is a database of languages and ethnicities of Niger. You can see clearly is was mentioned as Songhoy not "Kaado". Ibdawud (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

pinging @Sagotreespirit: for your thoughts 119.59.121.172 (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Sagotreespirit Please go through the Citations. Ibdawud (talk) 19:06, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

User:Sagotreespirit Ibdawud (talk) 19:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Note, Sagotreespirit stopped editing just before I sent a ping, if you don't hear back by this time tommorrow, I'd just start an WP:RM#CM, it will go through automatically after 7 days if unopposed, there's no rush. 119.59.121.172 (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ibdawud: Thanks, these citations look good. I think we can also consult @Kwamikagami: before moving forward with the move request. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 19:25, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Within the context of Niger, Kaado may be "proper" Songhai, but the Nigerien concept of Songhai crosses the border into Mali, all the way to Timbuktu. It's certanily not true that, in Mali, "Songhai" is a language of Niger. If you ask Malians where "real" Songhai is spoken, they're likely to answer Timbuktu, Djenne or perhaps even Gao (that is, a prestige variety of Songhai), but not Tillaberi. Even in Niamey, no-one will ever tell you to go to Tillaberi if you want to learn "real" Songhai. So even the rd of 'Songhai proper' to Kaado is inappropriate. And also in English-language sources, which is what is relevant to WP, Songhai is not a language of Niger as opposed to Mali.

P. 4 of the survey report linked to above says,

Thus, our limited outsider observations are that most Nigeriens, including Zarma and Dendi speakers, refer to the dialect in the region around Tera, which is called "Kaado" in the linguistic literature, simply as "Songhay". All Southern Songhay dialects spoken in Mali are also called "Songhay", but the Eastern dialect (with which Nigeriens have the most contact) is usually distinguished by Nigeriens as the speech of Gao, while they use the term "Songhay" to refer to the dialect spoken in Niger.

Table 1.2 then divides "Songhay" into Western, Central, Eastern, Kaado, Kurtey and Wogo, with Western Songhai spoken in Mali, Central Songhai in Mali and Burkina, Eastern Songhai in Mali and Niger, Kaado in Niger and Burkina, and the last two in Niger. There is no way this Kaado is "proper" or prototypical Songhai, apart from the local convention within Niger of referring to any variety of Songhai apart from the ethnically distinct Zarma and Dendi, whether Kaado or Eastern, as simply "Songhai".

As for "Kaado" being derogatory, SIL has a habit of spuriously claiming names are derogatory or pejorative, when all they are is dispreferred by some speakers because they're exonyms, and I would not accept SIL as a RS for such a claim. (I wonder sometimes if they use those labels in an attempt to change usage in the lit to the endonym.) The fact that native speakers call themselves Kaado suggests that it is not actually derogatory. But even if it is, calling this one variety "Songhai" outside of the limited context of Niger would be unjust to all the Malian speakers of Songhai who are not Kaado. I suppose we could move it to "Songoi" or something, if that can be shown to be the local pronunciation and is justified in the lit, but moving it to "Songhai proper" would be like moving Romansh to "Romance proper", as if Italian, French and Spanish were not "proper" Romance. We wouldn't accept a rd of "Romance proper" to Romansh either, and neither should we here. — kwami (talk) 22:38, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami:

Well noted sir. I agree with your suggestion sir. It should be moved to "Songoy"(which sounds similar) because upon further research, some nigeriens spell it just like this with an "h". Another word they use for this same dialect is "Sonrai". There is a song by a Nigerien songhay singer(Mali Yaro) who hails from Tera titled "Les Sonrai". It can be found on youtube.

Songoy or Sonrai would be more appropriate than "Kaado" because it is popular and widely accepted amongst all the Speakers of that particular dialect in Niger.

Another example is Boubou Hama, A late Nigerien writer who hailed from the songhai Region of Niger. After reading some of his biographies I hardly came by the word "kaado" but "Sonrai" or "Songhoy". Ibdawud (talk) 01:04, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but aren't those forms also used for Malian Songhai? "Sonrai", for example, is just the French spelling, common to both Niger and Mali.

Unless there's specialization, e.g. "Songoy" used specifically in Niger and not in Mali, that wouldn't be any better, because people could easily be looking for "Songoy" in a Malian context, and we can't establish a distinction that isn't justified by reliable sources. And if it isn't used in the English-language literature, we'd have a problem with COMMONNAME. As the language survey you linked to above stated, "Kaado" is the name used in the linguistic literature. It's really not up to us to change usage, unless maybe it's something egregious, which isn't the case here. — kwami (talk) 01:33, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Kwamikagami

Correct me if I am wrong Sir. In the Malian context, the word songhoi is used to refer to the "people" unlike in the Nigerien context where the word is used to refer to both the dialect and the people. In the Malian context there are various names given to the various dialects For eg; Koyraboro Senni, Koyra Chiini, Tondi Sangway kiini etc... I still stand by my suggestions because the word "Kaado" is very unpopular even among the Nigeriens and I don't think it should be the page name. I think should be somewhere at the beginning of the article. Maybe "Tillaberi Songhay". Another word used for the dialect in Niger is "Songhai-kiini". Kiini means "dialect" .. We should look into that also. This can be found in the Historical Dictionary of Niger in Google Books.

Another Suggestion:(Tillaberi Songhai-Kiini) Ibdawud (talk) 11:42, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

If "Songhoi" is used in both Mali and Niger, then it would be dishonest for us to claim that it's a language of Niger. — kwami (talk) 03:44, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Kwamikagami I Just came by this on french wiki. The name used there is "Songhoyboro Ciine" with "Kaado" in a bracket.

It is now clear this is the most appropriate word to use for this dialect. I have also made a written contribution to Ethnologue to reconsider the use of the word "Kaado". Ibdawud (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a ref for Wikipedia. Please show us linguistic sources, preferably English, that use that name. — kwami (talk) 03:44, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Kaado "derogatory"?

This sentence is in the article: "Some use the Peulh word "kado" (meaning; "not Peulh") to address this dialect although a huge percentage of the dialect speakers consider it pejorative." The reference given is Olivier de Sardan, Jean-Pierre (2000), Unité et diversité de l'ensemble songhay-zarma-dendi. I took a look at the article, but could not find where it said Kaado was "pejorative" or anything about "a huge percentage of the dialect speakers." It did confirm that among the many etymologies proposed, the author found the Peuhl origin, meaning "foreigner," the most likely. The author seemed comfortable using this term. Can we add a page number referencing the fact that "Kaado" is considered offensive by "a huge percentage"? Or if not, can we find a source about the term "Kaado" being derogatory? --seberle (talk) 07:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

seberie Concerning "Kaado" being a Derogatory term.

http://media.corban.edu/hydra/media/files/2019/09/10/southern-songhay-silesr1999_004-1.pdf (please refer to that last paragraph on Page 2.)

"Songhoyboro Ciine" is correct term and the the term used on french wiki. Secondly, the term "Kaado" is mostly used for the Dogon tribe of Mali https://www.culturesofwestafrica.com/glossary/dogon/ A Peulh word; ( it's in the article by Olivier de Sardan, Jean-Pierre (2000), Go through carefully) Again, I had the chance to ask the some speakers of the dialect..and this was the correct term...or just "Songhay"( which i feel using it would be unfair to the other speakers). Kaado is infact not well known even among the speakers. It can be seen from the previous talk(Merging) i gave some References. Before changing the name... I made sure to contact Ethnologue and Glattolog with my findings and sources. After further research, Both sites have also agreed to change to change it to "Songhoyboro Ciine" in their next editions. Glattolog (within the next 3months) and Ethnologue (Next February). You can contact them for confirmation. It can also be seen from all the referencing and sources, most did not call the dialect kaado but just "Songhay". Ibdawud (talk) 15:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

The term is actually a worse term. Kaado (Stranger or Pagan). Go through the research by De Sardan thoroughly. This confirms what some of the speakers told me when i was researching; before i initiated the move. You can also see in the same Article... The dialect is referred to as "SONAY CINE" (Songhay Cine) or just "Songhay" Ibdawud (talk) 16:26, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful information. I live in Niger and have Songhay friends, so I'm not doubting that some find the term offensive, and I think the change is good. I am, however, challenging that the information is referenced in the current citation. This new citation you've given is much better and should be added to the article. Also, I'm challenging the fact that "a huge percentage" of Songhay find it offensive, which your new reference seems to explicitly contradict. I guess it depends on one's definition of "huge." Might I suggest we change the wording to something more in line with the reference, such as "many dialect speakers consider it pejorative"?

In summary, I suggest we add your new reference, with page number. It's good. Let's also change "huge percentage" to something more in line with the citations. --seberle (talk) 15:58, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

seberie Ok. That's great. I also have Songhay friends from that region and most have not even heard the word before. When I asked, almost all of them told me it's a different tribe's name which are the "Dogons" of Mali also called "Kaado". Well, atleast we have reached a conclusion. I'll proceed to make the necessary corrections. You should also go through the article incase i miss something. Have a nice day sir! Ibdawud (talk) 01:09, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the edits. (No need to ping ... I'm following!) I didn't initially respond because I think the article is fine now. Since you're pushing me to look more closely, there is one thing I might question. But don't make changes without researching more. I've always thought of Songhay (Songhoyboro Ciine) as being spoken more on the right bank, not the left. Tera would be an example of an important Songhay town. Say is also on the right bank. (Say is a Fulani town, but Zarma/Songhay is commonly spoken there.) As the map shows, Songhay is commonly spoken on both banks. I'm honestly not sure which bank has more Songhay speakers, but once you go a bit east or south, it definitely becomes Zarma. If you consult academic sources, you will find maps of gradual changes in certain linguistic features as you travel from "Zarma" regions to "Songhay" regions. There is probably no firm dividing line linguistically, though everyone I've ever spoken to knows their ethnicity. Linguistically, Niamey is a muddled mess :-) --seberle (talk) 07:22, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

@Seberle: Great! I think the use of the left was a typo. I also think the correct word to use is "Northwestern corner" of the Tillabery Region since it is spoken on both banks in that particular region. There is a map in this mémoire which I think has the most accurate. I have updated the map to reflect this. Again, Upon further research, I've come to realize that part of the Tillabery Region is called "SoNay"(Songhay)... According to the Historical Dictionary of Niger. Ibdawud (talk) 10:23, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

References