Talk:Sonning Cutting railway accident

An interesting picture

In the Sonning Cutting article there is a link to an interesting drawing of the cutting at Sonning Hill done in about 1845. The brick arch bridge that carries the Bath Road over the cutting is shown in the background and a wooden bridge is shown in the middle ground. This must, I think, be the "wooden bridge" referred to at the inquests (there are and never were, I believe, any bridges over the cutting on the Reading side of the brick bridge). If this is correct, the picture shows the site of the accident, which was said to have happened about 270 yards on the Twyford side of the wooden bridge. So, what are those people doing in the picture? Evidently, they are repairing the bank slips that can quite clearly be seen in the drawing, on both sides of the line. All interesting, but of course of no use to the article, because this would constitute original research. Regards, Nick. Nick 08:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

I think Nick has a unenlightened view of "original research". The picture he refers to is presumably that from JC Bourne's book of the GWR, sketched well after the accident. The text makes no reference to the accident, but there does seem to be work on slipped material on the left bank. The right bank seems OK to me. I think it should be included in the article since the work is very old, and hardly "original". It shows the two bridges (which are still there, albeit in a different form), so that readers who bother to visit Sonning can look over the top of the A4 bridge, and see the site of this terrible accident. I can scan this picture if need be.Peterlewis 09:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Peter, if you could scan the picture and put it in the article this would be very helpful. I think that probably is a slip on the right-hand side, near to the track, it looks like a classic bank-slip to me. Regards, Nick. Nick 09:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I will try tomorrow at the university, because I know they have a large format scanner for the book. However, I only have the black and white image, not the coloured version. Will it matter? Peterlewis 09:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that this would be fine, thanks. I'll have a walk out to Sonning tomorrow, if it's nice, and take some pictures of the cutting and the graves in the churchyard. Regards, Nick. Nick 13:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Where is the graveyard? I am lecturing to my students at Reading University on Saturday and would like some pics myself for a new book I am writing on railway accidents with Alistair Nisbet. We are actually spending most of our effort on the Shipton-on-Cherwell disaster of Xmas Eve 1874, but I am writing up the early accidents on the GWR for the early part of the book. I have previously written a book on the Tay Bridge disaster and recently a book on the Dee bridge failure of 1847 (both from Tempus). I notice from the Inspectorate records that there were many landslips on newly opened lines. I am also building up the archive on early accidents by scanning the reports and sending them on to the railwaysarchve.co.uk. The webmaster is aiming to have all the accident reports uploaded, so if you can help, it would be gratefully received! Peterlewis 14:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Peter, the reports in The Times said that those killed in the accident were buried in the churchyard at Sonning. The church is St Andrews, which is behind the Bull pub and The Old Deanery, near to the centre of the village. I'll have a hunt in the churchyard for a monument (I'm fairly certain there must be one) and let you know. What I'll do tomorrow is walk along the Thames Path from Caversham to Sonning, have a look in the churchyard and then walk up to the cutting, crossing it twice, once on what used to be called the Mustard Lane bridge and back on what was the old wooden bridge. I'll take what pictures I can and you'd be more than welcome to these. The brick bridge at the cutting I've actually been inside, it was hollow as built, but was filled with lightweight foamed mortar about 17 years ago. Regarding contemporaneous sources of information on railway accidents, The Times is very comprehensive, on the early ones at least. Regards, Nick. Nick 18:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done all this, but couldn't find a monument to the people who were killed in Sonning churchyard. A chap mowing the grass there told me that years ago he'd been told that there was a mass grave for people who'd been killed during the construction of the cutting, near to the north gate of the churchyard. He also showed me the spot, there are no markers there at all. It seems possible that, in fact, this is where the passengers were buried. Anyway, I've dropped a line by email to the vicar, to see if he can help. I have some pictures of the churchyard and the cutting, which you're welcome to, I'll add one of the crash site to the article. The banks of soil on the edges of the cutting, mentioned at the inquests, still appear to be there after all this time. Regards, Nick. Nick 16:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just uploaded the Bourne print to the article. Perhaps you can add some discussion re: slips visible? The ones at left are pretty clear but I'm not so sure on any at right. The Bourne prints are superb I think, and I will upload some more when time permits. I saw the cutting from the A4 bridge the other day, and it looks very impressive. Are there any views from the other end? Peterlewis 16:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

For what they're worth, I've posted the pictures from today's walk here: http://picasaweb.google.com/nhopton/SonningAndTheCutting, do help yourself to anything you might want. As you'll see, it was a little misty and the lighting was difficult. I'll pop some words on the Bourne drawing, it look good by the way. Regards, Nick. Nick 18:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the pics, and will be visiting the site over the weekend for some more. I wonder if it is possible to gain access to the top of the cutting? The Inpsectorate report clearly shows that the extra piled earth on top of the cutting made a slp much more likely. Ther section shows the origin of the slip just below the top of the cutting, just below the extra piles. Peterlewis 19:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you might have problems getting to the top of the cutting on the south side. There are houses in Rycroft Close whose gardens back onto the edge of the cutting overlooking the crash site, according to the map, and it might be possible to get assess through one of these. As I remember, on the eastern side of the north abutment of the former wooden bridge there is some waste ground where people have dumped rubbish and it looks as if there might be a path up onto the soil bank, but I didn't explore this. Something else I meant to check and didn't was whether the abutments of the wooden bridge as shown in the Bourne print are still in place, or whether they were replaced when the "new" bridge was built. Regards, Nick. Nick 20:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

One other thing, if you're going to the cutting on Saturday. I didn't look at the soils dumped along the edges of the cutting, but it might be surmised that these are mainly clay. According to John Wymer (Lower Palaeolithic Archaeology in Britain) the sequence there was Lynch Hill and Boyn Hill gravels sitting on London Clay and Reading Beds. It might be the case that the gravels were used for embankment fill elsewhere on the line, but that the clays were unsuitable for use as embankment fill and dumped on site. Wymer says that some of the clays in the spoil heaps were used for brick-making when the cutting was widened in 1892. Regards, Nick. Nick 09:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I had a good explore at Sonning this weekend, including a visit to the local pub, the Shepherds House. Is this the original pub where the inquest was held? The landlord didn't seem to know, but has been complaining of ghosts recently! The local graveyard s very large, and apparently no graves of victims, but I was only able to view a few. Any luck with the local vicar? Considering the importance of the disaster as one of the most serious on the early railways, there s more exploration to be done. Peterlewis 15:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The Shepherds House is where it's always been, I think, but it's been enlarged over the years. Yes, this is where the first inquest was held. Nothing from the vicar yet, I found two email addresses for him and sent my enquiry to both, but one bounced. If I don't hear from him in the next few days I'll give him a call, it's quite possible that he's moved ISP or something. It is a shame about the lack of a monument in the churchyard, evidently the GWR didn't stump up for one (perhaps it would have looked too much like accepting some vestige of responsibility). I'll bet the dead were buried at the expense of the parish too, the vicar might know about this. I'll keep plugging away. Regards, Nick. Nick 18:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The Inspectorate issued a circular to all the rail co's on Jan 1st 1842 asking about 3rd class passenger accomodation. Only the GWR and SWR carried such passengers with goods, and the SWR said they would stop the practice soon. OS Nock (History of the GWR) says that the GWR hated carrying poor people for fear of offending the rich and famous, carrying them like cattle and only at night! Seems pretty shameful to me: I bet the victims received paupers graves in an unmarked plot. I am writing all of the analysis up for our new book, and will put some comments on the site. Peterlewis 19:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

One of the interesting things I've found about early accident reports and inquests is the light they throw on attitudes at the time. In the 1840s one of the directors of a railway company, it might have been the GWR, his name was Crawshay (sp?) was quoted as complaining bitterly about people who could afford first-class tickets buying second-class tickets, and people who could afford second-class tickets buying third-class tickets. Doubtless there were commercial reasons for his complaints, but I also think there was probably something more; the people who did this were upsetting the natural order of things. Crawshay said that if he had his way he'd put a sweep with a sack of soot in every third-class carriage to discourage people who ought to be buying second-class tickets. Regards, Nick Nick 19:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The site of the slip is still in existence - I know as I live right next to it and can access it through my back garden. The soil excavated from the cutting is basically of two types: heavy clay and soft sand that was presumably dumped in cart loads to create the hills on either side of the embankment. It is hardly surprising that a slip occurred as the south side of the cutting is still fairly steep in places. As for the site itself its a spooky place. Keith. Keith Sabine 11:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Keith, yes, the soils there are said to be Reading Beds and London Clay. The clay would probably be the London Clay and the fine sandy stuff would probably be Reading Beds. The gravel that was once on the top would probably have been carted away for embankment works elsewhere, but the clays and sands would have been of no use for this purpose and were evidently dumped along the edges of the cutting. It's difficult to imagine that the dumped soils didn't contribute in some measure to the bank slip that caused the accident. Regards, Nick. Nick 18:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Victims

I have been reading the Times reports from the Inquest, and they make harrowing but interesting reading. Surely there must be a church record of their burial? Even if there are no marked graves, I would have thought that the church would have had special respect for stone masons working on the new Houses of Parliament. I wonder if there is a memorial there? Peterlewis 17:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have recently been in touch with Diane Coulter of the Sonning and Eye History Society, and she is approaching the vicar drectly with our request for further info on the whereabouts of the victims. I will post any news here if you like, and then consider for posting on the main article. Peterlewis 21:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes please. I didn't want to start pressing him over Easter-time, for obvious reasons. Regards, Nick. Nick 09:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC). Added later: I'll bet that the people killed in the crash were probably buried at the expense of the parish, or in any case, not at the expense of the GWR. It would be interesting to know about this. In business, any religious or humanitarian ethics would have extended exactly as far as the letter of the law, as Tawney would have it. Regards, Nick. Nick 10:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello Peter, Just to enquire if you've heard anything from Sonning yet. Regards, Nick. Nick 08:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Nothing yet from Sonning and Eye Soc. I will message her again. There must be entries in the births and deaths register. Has the vicar responded to your email? And where was the ninth victim, who died in the Royal Berks buried?Peterlewis 13:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No, nothing from Canon Clarke yet. I haven't been able to find out where the person who died at the RBH was buried, but it almost certainly would have been in Reading, I think. It was The Times that mentioned that the other eight were buried at Sonning. My better half is going to the Berkshire Records Office tomorrow afternoon on some other business and she's just agreed to see if she can find out anything more from there. I'll let you know. Regards, Nick. Nick 19:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you had a chance to visit the Shepherds Rest recently? When I visited recently, they didn't know about the early rail disaster, and quite out of the blue, the landlord has been complaining about "ghosts" in the pub. Is it the same building where the Inquest was held, and did they keep the 8 bodies there during the Inquest? I have also been reading Brunel's testimony to the select committee on railway safety from the summer of 1841, and he resisted any interference on safety like the plague...then comes Sonning... Peterlewis 20:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been years since I last went into The Shepherd's House, but next time I'm passing I'll drop in there. This is where the first inquest was held, which makes sense, because the pub would have been in the parish of Sonning at the time of the accident (I don't think it is now). I'm not sure how much of the old pub survives from 1841, but I'm pretty sure it's still in the same place. According to the papers at the time the bodies were kept in a hut by the side of the line near to where the accident happened, the hut having been built for use by the people digging the cutting a year or two earlier. From the little I've read about him, Brunel did appear to have pretty cavalier attitude to safety, other people's and his own, but this seems to have been the way that things worked in those days. The letter of the law was all that was owed and there weren't any laws. Incidentally, I think the place where inquests were held could be quite important. At the inquest of the man who died in hospital at Reading the jury placed a deodand on the train, which was overturned partly on the grounds that the Reading jury exceeded their powers by placing a deodand in respect of an accident that happened in another parish. This was real Catch-22 stuff, the inquest had to be held in Reading because that's where the man died, but because of this the jury couldn't order a deodand which could be made to stick. Regards, Nick. Nick 09:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC) Added later: deodands were almost always overturned on technicalities, in one case I read about someone killed by an exploding boiler, the deodand was was struck-down on the grounds that it was a fragment of the boiler that killed the man and not the boiler itself. In another case of an explosion in a factory the deodand was overturned on the grounds that the explosion was so enormous that there was nothing left on which to place it. Regards, Nick. Nick 09:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Charles Babbage in his book Passages from the Life of a Philosopher throws some interesting light on Brunel's attitude to safety. One Sunday, Babbage set off in a special from Paddington to meet his friend Brunel somewhere down the line. On the way he met Brunel, who was driving an engine going up on the down line. Both trains managed to stop before meeting head-on and Brunel, when asked by Babbage what he would have done had it become obvious that a collision was inevitable, replied I would have applied all the steam I could, so as to drive your train off the rails by virtue of superior momentum. This is all from memory, I lost the book years ago, but I think it's a reasonably accurate retelling. Regards, Nick. Nick 11:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Identity of victims

The Times reports on the inquests gave the names of those killed as:

Died at the scene. John Pook, Stoke Cannon, Exeter, aged 30. Charles Williams, stone mason, Cheltenham, aged 32. Charles E. Sweetland, stone mason, Gloucester, aged 30. George Mabbott, stone mason, Gloucester, aged 34. Richard Ralph, Harwell, aged 25. Labouring man, not identified. Joseph Hands, Regent's Park, aged 26. Jabez Cleave or Clee, stone mason.

Died in the RBH, 30/12/1841. Richard Woolley, stone mason, Cheltenham, aged 40.

The eight who were killed in the parish of Sonning were said to have been buried in the churchyard at Sonning, but my wife could only find records for four of them, buried 28/12/1841, named as follows:

Charles Griffiths Sweetland, Gloucester, aged 21. George Mabbott, Gloucester, aged 45. Unknown, supposed to be John Pook, of unknown, aged about 23. William Henry Thomas, Stanley St Leonard, aged 32. Presumable he is the Labouring man shown in the list above.

A note in the index says these four persons (with four others) were killed by an accident on the Great Western Railway, December 24th.

90.218.80.232 (talk) any more upto date information guys?? —Preceding undated comment added 22:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC). Richard Woolley, who died in the RBH, does not appear to have been buried in any of the three parishes of Reading.

All this seems to beg more questions than it gives answers. It will be interesting to see if the Sonning records can add anything more. Regards, Nick. Nick 16:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)