Talk:Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg

Untitled

Request to move to Countess Sophie Chotek.

• per Wikipedia convention on naming nobility. Antares911 16:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

does this make any sense to anyone?

NO, it doesn't. So I moved this page from Bosansko Grahovo (possibly the place where the assassination was supposed to have taken place .... ) to Sophie Chotek, and I am editing it. Please feel free to help fix this up ..... -- PFHLai 01:57, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming conventions are sadly very Anglo-centric. They don't work nearly as well for European nobility. I would argue in favour of "Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg", the (English-translation of the) title she held for the last nine years of her life. Noel S McFerran 20:06, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I think that's the proper application of the conventions, anyway. IMO, a morganatic marriage should not be classified under "Royal Consorts". That would push her into the "hereditary peers" category, and "Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg" would be correct. Choess 00:44, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I concur - she should be at Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg. I'm going to move it. john k 16:04, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I do not concur, as Sophie was raised in 1909, by the Emperor to the title of Archduchess, to make it less awkward. She still ranked lower than the Archduchesses born into the family, but it allowed her to accompany her husband, the heir on visits, like to the UK, Romania, Germany, Greece, and sadly to Sarajevo. Also, there was some warming between the Emperor with her. At her death she at the rank of Duchess of Hohenberg and style of “Ihre Hoheit” or “Your Serene Highness”. It's Anglicized to Duchess but as the wife of the heir, with the title she is befitting I believe in death to some designation don't you think? Acpritt (talk) 08:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC) Acpritt

I need to correct a bit of incorrect information here - Sophie was never elevated to the rank of Archduchess, but Duchess of Hohenberg, in 1909. She still couldn't acoompany Franz Ferdinand on formal occasions as the wife of the heir to the throne, BUT she could now accompany him in his military capacity as wife of the Inspector-General of the Austro-Hungarian Armed Forces. She could also go abroad on informal, private visits with him, in which capacity she accompanied the Archduke on his highly successful private visit to Great Britain in 1913, during which she had a private audience with Queen Mary. It was as spouse of one of the top Austro-Hungarian army officers that she was able to travel to Bosnia with Franz Ferdinand (who had also arranged matters to give her a special treat on the 14th anniversary of their marriage, which, by tragic consequence, happened to fall on June 28, 1914.) 149.101.1.116 (talk) 18:50, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

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Sophie was pregnant

How pregnant was Sophie when she was shot, and what happened to the foetus?

Considering the technology of the times, it certainly died with her. But the article disputes whether she was pregnant at all. I dispute that. A woman of 46 years, even in 1914, could certainly become pregnant. Whether it would a stable and viable pregnancy is wide open to dispute. But the proof would be whether she had passed menopause, which the article assumes, but doesn't support. --Bill 23:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Could somebody provide a source for the claim that she was pregnant when killed? john k 02:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

A video we watched in history. I'm not sure what it is called - but I doubt an educational video would pass off a myth as a fact. Cheesypot (talk) 16:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be believed among Sarajevans in 2014 that she was pregnant. A Guardian article (Friday 27 June 2014, "Villain or hero? Sarajevo is split on archduke's assassin Gavrilo Princip", by Andrew MacDowall) about the naming of park in the city after Princip the assassin quotes interviewed people, at least one of whom castigated Princip as a murderer of a pregnant woman.Cloptonson (talk) 19:29, 9 August 2014 (UTC) Sophie is also said to be an expectant mother in the article on the assassination from Eyewitness to History [1]. Cloptonson (talk) 21:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The 1982 German-language book "Franz Ferdinand von Osterreich-Este", by Gerd Holler, reprints the report prepared on the autopsies and embalming of the corpses of the Archduke and the Duchess in the first chapter. I've run the relevant passages through Google Translate (a summary can also be found in the 2013 book "The Assassination of the Archduke" by Greg King and Sue Woolmans), and according to this document, while examination of the Archduke's body was strictly limited on orders from Vienna (though, admittedly, the cause of death was pretty obvious - a single bullet fired into Franz Ferdinand's lower right neck just above his collarbone which severed the jugular vein and damaged the trachea), no such limitations were placed on examination of Sophie's body. Her abdomen was opened by the examining doctors, and the cause of death was quickly ascertained. The bullet fired into her abdomen severed the abdominal aorta and right iliac vein before lodging in her pelvis, and she died of massive internal bleeding within minutes (a large quantity of semi-coagulated blood, which caused her internal organs to be displaced, was found in the abdominal cavity). However - and very importantly - the report contains no indication whatsoever that Sophie was pregnant at the time of her death. I personally doubt that she was, even though, being 46, she might not yet have reached menopause at the time she was killed. The most reliable accounts of the life and death of the couple (e.g., the King/Woolmans book, which relies in significant part on newly-discovered letters from Sophie to her sister and is probably the most extensive available account of her life in English, as well as "Archduke of Sarajevo", by the British journalist Gordon Brook-Shepherd) state that, after the stillbirth of what would have been their fourth child (and third son) in 1909, Sophie, who was 40 or 41 at the time, was instructed by her doctors not to risk another pregnancy. The cited authors state that this was a source of great distress to the Archduke, who had been looking forward to having a large family, and Brook-Shepherd theorizes that this may have contributed to what some other authorities have claimed to be a dislike of children on his part, but may instead have been disappointment at not having been able to have more children. 149.101.1.116 (talk) 18:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

number of gun shots

This article says that Gavrilo Princip fired several times into the car, but the wikipedia article on Gavrilo Princip says he only fired twice. Which is correct ? There were 2 shots.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Two shots is correct. Princip's first shot struck Franz Ferdinand in his lower right neck, severing his jugular vein and damaging his trachea before lodging in the left side of his spine. He intended to shoot General Oskar Potoriek next, but for whatever reason - some say his aim was thrown off by a plainclothes police officer standing nearby who grappled with him, others that he flinched when he saw the Duchess in his line of fire so wasn't watching where he was aiming - he shot the Duchess by accident with his second round. That bullet entered her lower right abdomen, severing her abdominal aorta and right iliac vein, before lodging in her pelvis on the left side; she died within minutes of internal bleeding before their car could reach the Konak. Interestingly, Princip, while never expressing regret over having shot the Archduke, appears to have been wracked with remorse at having unintentionally killed the Duchess. 149.101.1.116 (talk) 18:54, 14 November 2022 (UTC)