Talk:Soqotri language

Which vowels are phonemic?

According to Kogan's papers, there's a lot that is unclear about the phonemicy of many of Soqotri's is under further scrutiny, older papers like Simeone-Senelle (1997) suggest a 5 vowel system /i u e o ɑ/, but Kogan and Bulakh's section on The Semitic Languages (2019) has /i u e (ø) o ɛ (ɔ) (a)/, tho they do comment on the distinction between /e/ and /ɛ/ being yet to be examined. They say that [ø] could be an allophone of /e/ (and secondarily /o/), that [ɔ] could be an allophone of /o/, and that [a] could be an allophone of /ɛ/. Analyzing the data from that section and "The vowels of Soqotri as a phonemic system" (2014) by Kogan and Naumkin it is clear to me that /a/ and /ø/ are fully phonemic, /a/ only being distinguished from /ɛ/ in nouns and adjectives (e.g. /bar/ "strength", /bɛr/ "open place"), and /ø/ showing minimal pairs with /e/ only in the verbal paradigm (e.g. /ˈkʼøbor/ "he buried", /ˈkʼeber/ "they buried"). But on the other hand [ɔ] shows only one suspicious minimal pair /ho/ "I" and /hɔ/ [a form of address]. That's why I think the phonemicy of /a/ and /ø/ is clear but [ɔ] not necessarily so. Yet User:Fdom5997 insists in their edits that /a/ and /ɔ/ are phonemic but not [ø]. I will not edit war as this isn't really important, so I'll let y'all decide if this is convincing. --Rywko (talk) 9:35, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Rywko as long as you provide a source that proves that [ø] is actually phonemic as /ø/, then I believe that we should display it as such. Fdom5997 (talk) 21:18, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Fdom5997 I literally just provided why you can't claim [ɔ] is phonemic but [ø] isn't. Summery:

- Old literature says the phonemes are /i u e o ɑ/.

- New literature says the phonemes are /i u e (ø) o ɛ (ɔ) (a)/.

- You insist on making [ɔ] and [a] phonemic but not [ø].

- I give reasons for why the data we already have shows that [a] and [ø] are phonemic but [ɔ] is unclear.

Please read what I perviously said carefully. What I expect as a response is one of the following:

- An argument for why [ɔ] and [a] are phonemic but not [ø].

- Sources that claim Soqotri's vowels are /i u e (ø) o ɛ ɔ a/

- Following the sources and reverting the vowel chart to /i u e (ø) o ɛ (ɔ) (a)/

- Following my very straightforward data collection and doing /i u e ø o ɛ (ɔ) a/

I'm not trying to be rude but this is the not the first time I've been stuck in odd arguments like this where the other person just refuses to engage with the very reasonable statements I make. --Rywko (talk) 4:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC) Rywko (talk) 04:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Since I've seen no reply in a month, I will go with /i u e ø o ɛ (ɔ) a/ Rywko (talk) 10:52, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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Untitled

"Since women are forbidden to leave the island no Soqotri speakers are found in the Yemeni mainland." - A total non sequitur. Maybe no Soqotri speakers are _born_ on the mainland, but I met men go there sometimes.

Soqotri Speakers

The information of Soqotran women have been forbidden to leave the island is to be proved - I saw that they leaved (being married to Yemeni mainlanders at least!). The Soqotri language became the language of a national minority of Soqotrans in the UAE. Of course, for young Soqotrans living abroad it is hard enough to learn their unwritten language, especially when it is out of their daily usage in families. However, some "temethel d-min Saqatri" (Soqotran special short poetry items) are known among them like:

temethel qa'onhen - beshol hayefeten: (or hafeten): yisheyn-sen d-bi-dehan, d-bal-dehan y'ayhof-sen! (or yigarod-sen)!

Links

The affinities of the Arabic dialect on Soqotra ought to be mentioned. I should imagine it has links with the Yemeni-Omani-Hadhrami dialect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 08:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I changed one link, because the previous one was obsolete. I'm afraid it is also the case of links to RBGB, but it is difficult to check the absence of a page on a website. maybe it has moved... Fernand d'Ambérac.

Soqotri is a MSA language

There is no Yemeni-Omani-Hadhrami dialect.. because there are many big Yemeni Arabic dialects in Yemen "shimaalan wa ganuuban" (Sana'ani, Adeni-Ta'izzi, Dathina and Hadhrami - and these are not all of them), as well as there is an Arabic dialect of Oman. The local population in Mahra speaks several MSA languages as well as the population of the Soqotra archipelago (Yemen) and of Dhofar province of Oman. The Soqotrans are speaking Arabic dialect well but it seams to have Gulf Arabic features for favorite Soqotran emigration to UAE for decades. Mutargim (talk) 03:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Confusion

The Wiki article describes the language "It is one of the Modern South Arabian languages (MSAL) and is usually classified as a South Semitic language," yet the New York Times calls it "Socotri, a language that is unique to the (Socotra) island and related to some of the oldest of the Near East."

Are these statements in conflict? If not, can a cunning linguist clarify the article?

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Soqotri is one of the Modern South Arabian languages, which are usually classified as South Semitic. The New York Times writer is, well, a travel writer, not a linguist, and their goal is to glamorize their topic. Soqotri is, indeed, only spoken on the island of Soqotra, thus it is unique. As a Semitic language, Soqotri, is, indeed, related (distantly) to Akkadian, one of the oldest recorded languages of the Near East. But all other Semitic languages are also distantly related to Akkadian. (I am a linguist, but cunning is a relative term.) (Taivo (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC))

Taivo, thanks for the clarification. I felt caught between the normally erudite NY Times and, as you say, a travel writer, not a linguist, and I felt uncomfortable with answers outside my knowledge.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 02:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the author may have been confusing the Modern South Arabian languages (like Soqotri) with the Old South Arabian languages, which are not closely related to MSA and instead seem to be closer to Arabic and Northwest Semitic. N. Pharris (talk) 16:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Reworking First Paragraph

One thing that became clear with the question on the "Confusion" section above is that the first paragraph was a mess. The reference to the travelogue just to justify the alternate spelling "Socotri" was totally unnecessary. An overall reference to Ethnologue is quite sufficient to reference alternate spellings. The second part of that first paragraph was a clutter of references to Militarev and was not correct even when talking about his conclusions. I cleaned that all up to clarify it. However, I think that the entire final sentence of that first paragraph is not appropriate here, but is appropriate at the MSAL article. This article isn't about where the MSAL fit into a Semitic framework, but about Soqotri only. I moved it there. (Taivo (talk) 13:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC))

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Factual Error

"This has induced research since the nineteenth century by the United Nations Development Program in order to closely survey the island and understand its biodiversity.[citation needed]" According to the The United Nations' own history page, the UN was not formed until 24 October 1945. The above quotation cannot possibly be correct.66.196.10.129 (talk) 06:14, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

References

Phonology Question

Why are interdental fricatives listed in the phonological system chart when, according to the text, the old Semitic interdental fricatives have merged with the dental stops in all known dialects of Soqotri? N. Pharris (talk) 16:18, 21 March 2021 (UTC)