Talk:Sourdough/Archive 1

Archive 1

Upload of a new image

How to make and maintain firm sourdough

I made this image to show graphically how to make and maintain firm sourdough, based on the recipe found on Cookbook: Sourdough Starter. --Nadiaeagle (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Illinois

I lived in the S.F. Bay Area all my life, but I just moved to Illinois, and no one sells sourdough bread. This is killing me. Why is this? I once heard that it's impossible to make sourdough bread in the Midwest. Is that true? --JM

The problem is that the distinctive flavor of a sourdough bread depends greatly on the particular breed of natural bacteria and yeasts growing in the starter. Different areas have different breeds, and therefore different tastes. Sourdough works anywhere, but the flavor can change from location to location, starter to starter, and day to day. --Mdwyer 05:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this original work?

It passes the Google test - it also looks like the legit recipe. --mav

Cite for ancient sourdough from http://www.sourdo.com/book.htm

"the organisms of sourdough that produced man's bread for 5,000 years."

--Dr.Ed Wood

Cite for wheat in ancient Egypt from http://teaching.ucdavis.edu/nut120a/0032.htm

"G. Regarding cereals-grains

1. Wheat and barley were the cereals used most commonly. Indeed, during the Greek and Roman period of Egyptian history, Egypt was the grain producing breadbasket of the ancient Mediterranean. Even today, one may travel westward from Alexandria along the coast towards Libya, and in springtime, see the hundreds of ancient mounds that represent ruined villages where cultivators were housed; the irrigation system, cisterns are still in place and today, some of these are used by settled Bedouins. ' Darrell

Congratulations on wonderful work

I had a terrible time finding a definition for sourdough – the stuff that is used as an alternative to yeast – in my big dictionary at home, and had little luck with several online dictionaries. All gave a definition so superficial " sour dough used as a leavening agent" that it told me nothing useful. Your definiton was wonderfully complete and so interesting to read that I learned a good deal more than the basics of sourdough biology, which was my original query. Many thanks to all who contribute to Wikipedia.
Jay Bryan
Montreal
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.254.253.134 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 21 March 2004 (UTC)‎

I concur! The contributors to this page are doing a fantastic job. I've been baking sourdough for about 4 years and I figured I'd read a ton of garbage here but I think you folks did a splendid job! seaniz (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Spoilage?

Does this statement As a result, many sourdough bread varieties tend to be relatively resistant to spoilage and mold. refer to the culture or the finished bread? pstudier 02:37, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading, and it conforms to my exerience, that the longer it takes to make the bread (in development of the dough and in baking) the longer the bread will retain it's freshness.

A stable starter is somewhat resistant to other organisms taking over. Also the bread tends to have a longer shelf life.

Some breads will go stale and hard (even if kept properly) long before they spoil or become moldy. That has more to do with the fat content - the higher the fat, the longer the bread will remain soft and fresh. I suspect this is why commercial breads stay soft for so long. --Charlene.fic 04:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The preservation comment should apply to both the starter and the bread. According to Dr. Ed Wood sourdough's first line of defense is the acidity of the starter and the dough. Most micro-organisms have trouble tolerating the acidity produced by the bacteria. Also, as of the time Dr. Wood's book "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity" was published 50 different agents with anti-bacterial properties created by the bacteria had been discovered in sourdough starter. Much of the protection carries over to the bread. In our small bakery we did some informal aging tests. We put wrapped and dated bread on the shelf. Typically it was at least 21 days before our sourdough breads developed any mold. 14 days for breads made with poolish or biga. And only 7 for straght process yeasted breads. Commercial breads tend to stay fresh because of the addition of stabilizers and preservatives. Adding oils will add a few days freshness, but a well made bread will be enjoyable for at least a week. Bread has two enemies, mold and staling. The conditions that favor one will protect against the other. When I baked on the Gulf Coast of Texas, where the humidity was in excess of 80%, bread molded very quickly. In the dry high mountains of Colorado, where 38% humidity is considered a wet day, bread takes a long time to mold, but will stale quickly. Mavery81230 14:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Sour dough loaves02.jpg

There has been criticism that this picture is "bad" and "blurry": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sour_dough_loaves02.jpg

The loaves are in perfect focus and the zoom blur is only for artistic effect. Perhaps the original uploader could upload a non-blurred image? Dav2008 18:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't even notice the blur until I read this page. I think it's fine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.156.35 (talk • contribs)

It clearly shows Sourdough's amazing ability to arrive on shelves in 70 mph bursts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.215.128.199 (talk • contribs)

This article is being vandalized very frequently purely because of this image; frankly, I'm tired of both doing and seeing the reversions. As a result, I'm going to remove it for the time being, and rearrange the existing images. If the photographer would consider uploading a non-blurred image (I will request it on his talk page), I would certainly welcome it back to this article. Anon user: it was barely funny the first time you did it, and repetition has only decreased its humor value. — Wwagner 18:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This photo looks like it is taken at a Bakers Delight franchise. Their sour dough doesn't really have the proper (or should I say as rich) taste that sour dough bread usually has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.137.38.93 (talk • contribs)

I agree. Check out Baker's Delight nutritional information for rye and sourdough - all the sourdough loaves have yeast and food acids in their ingredients. Of the included foods acids, 270 is lactic acid. If the image is of a Baker's Delight shop, the bread isn't sourdough. Webaware 09:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, I talked to the photographer (Fir0002) and he uploaded a non-zoomy version of the image, which I have added back into the article. As far as whether these loaves are or are not sourdough, I didn't see them being made, so I have no comment. The image looks very good, and hopefully this will reduce our vandalism problems. — Wwagner 14:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I checked with the photographer, and he confirms it is in fact a photograph of bread in a Baker's Delight shop. IOW, it isn't actually sourdough bread. Webaware 23:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks like sour dough, and that's all that matters for an encylopedic entry, to be honest. Don't be pedantic! 86.54.130.68 11:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why everyone is so angry about that caption. I got a good chuckle out of it. "But Sourdough cannot fly onto the shelves!! It is an inanimate object!!" Give me a break, lighten up guy.

Wikipedia is not for chuckle. It's for encyclopedic information. What you said is the very reason not to use said photo or anything connected with it... 195.22.117.118 (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

can someone explain to me why sourdough has to arrive at 70 mph? Or why it is the caption for this picture?

Image placement

I recently rearranged the images for the following reasons:

• More attractive picture was made larger and placed on top-right
• Sourdough starter picture placed in the appropriate section so it aids the text
• Sourdough loaves was added a |thumb| and placed on the left side for left-right alternation. It was also made smaller so the amount of text between images is limited

Does this image placement work or does anyone have any other ideas? Dav2008 14:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

A person as "sourdough"

A person can be called a "sourdough," meaning an early settler or prospector in Alaska or NW Canada, according to the American Heritage College Dictionary.

Perhaps the term used in this context deserves some discussion, or an entry of its own? --Skb8721 22:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Biga is not sourdough

This is the first time I've posted to talk pages. I hope I am not doing something wrong in the manner of my posting.

Biga, like poolish, is a technique that was developed after the advent of bakers yeast in the mid to late 1800's.

Bakers left sourdough in droves because yeast was easier to use. However, two problems arose. They had to pay the yeast company every time they made bread (bakers are among the most frugal people around) and the customers were upset about the reduced flavor in the yeasted breads compared to the straight dough process yeasted breads.

The answer to both problems lay in non-sourdough preferments.

There are five major non-sourdough preferments. Autolyse, sponge, old dough, poolish and biga. Right now, I'm interested in biga.

Biga is a mix of flour, water and yeast. It is about 57% hydration and uses about .35% fresh yeast. It is allowed to rise or ferment for 12 to 16 hours before use. The dense preferment builds lots of flavors, and has a characteristic light nutty taste. The long fermentation also allows the yeast to multiply. In the final dough another .17% or so of fresh yeast is added. This compares to about 2% fresh yeast in a straight dough process. There is no deliberate cultivation of lactobacillus bacteria and there is no hold over from day to day which together are hallmarks of the sourdough process.

In short, biga is a sourdough process, and should not be linked to from the sourdough page, at least not with any indication that biga is a sourdough process.

Mavery81230 (talk) 03:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I am a baker with over 30 years of hobbyist experience, lots of reading and 5 years of professional experience. Sadly, I am in the middle of a move so I do not have access to books to act as references for the above. They are all in boxes. If someone has a copy of, "The Taste of Bread" by Professor Raymond Calvel that isn't in a shipping box, I believe most of the content above can be substantiated there.

Mike

I think they are similar enough to be maintained as a link, though. Indeed, the Biga (bread baking) article uses the term sourdough a number of times. You might want to drop by there, as well. In the meantime, I'll make an edit to the link to make the distinction more clear. --Mdwyer (talk) 06:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Mdwyer

Good edit. There is a difference between referring to biga as sourdough (which the original text did) and comparing it to sourdough (which the new text does). One is reasonable, one is not. Thanks. Mavery81230 14:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Move to Natural leaven?

I'm not too sure about the current title -- sourdough and natural leaven aren't divergent enough subjects to really be separate articles, but sourdough is only a subset of the whole subject of natural leaven. The article needs a lot of work anyway -- organizational, etc -- any ideas? Haikupoet (talk) 02:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like that's a redlink, now. In any case, do the mentions on Leavening agent suffice? --Mdwyer (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Barm displaced sourdough?

In the sourdough article there is a passing mention that barm (variously defined as actively fermenting beer, the foam off of actively fermenting beer, or the lees under beer) displaced sourdough. Given that sourdough and beer have about the same length of history, the conclusion that barm displaced sourdough in bread making isn't clear to me. My impression is that barm was most common in England and rare elsewhere.

As a professional baker and a hobbyist brewer, I would not want to depend on a brewer to produce barm for me when I needed it. Most commercial bakers bake daily, most small scale brewers do not which could cause problems for the baker.

Anyway, is there a reference on this? Mavery81230 (talk) 15:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's been over two months, and there is still no reference to support the contention that barm displaced sourdough. It is clear that cultured yeast products did largely displace sourdough in the mid to late 1800's, but it is far from clear that barm was widely enough used to claim that it had displaced sourdough st any time. If there is no documentation on this, I suggest that the reference to barm be removed, as well as the link to the middle ages. Barm was not, from my reading, in common use in France, Germany or any country that used lots of rye flour. Sourdough acidifies rye flour making it more workable. Barm does not. Sourdough was common in France until well into the 1900's, and remains in common use today in Germany and other countries where rye is a major grain in breadmaking.

Mavery81230 (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Criteria for selection/inclusion of external links?

It isn't clear to me what the criteria for the selection of external links is. I added links to my own web page, sourdoughhome.com, and they were deleted as "possible linkspam." They were not. I see other hobbyist web sites have been added, notably the rec.food.sourdough FAQ (which is very good), and "Recipe, discussion and pictures of making sourdough bread." So, could someone clarify the criteria used (or point me to an appropriate line), and do either of these links meet those criteria? Mavery81230 (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The general criteria are at Wikipedia:External links, but it basically comes down to what people working on the article decide to include. Sourdoughhome.com seems like a reasonable site to link to me, it's got information that's too in-depth to be in competition with our article and it isn't just a commercial front. The only potential counter-argument is that we don't want to list too many sites with similar content because it gets too cluttered (I don't think sourdough preparation is so popular a website topic that that would be a problem though). DopefishJustin (talk) 05:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Other sourdough traditions

Sourdough is used in other countries in significantly greater proportions than in English-speaking countries, notably in Central Europe, where much more rye is used for bread making. There are a number of differences, in particular the use of sourdough with no yeast component--see the German page, for example. I've modified the introduction to be less tied to specific ways of using sourdough, but more needs to be done. For example, in Germany sourdough can also contain Saccharomyces Minor, and some cultures are refined enough that they shouldn't be considered "wild" or "spontaneous". Groogle (talk) 05:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of external link to sourdough FAQ website

A new editor Crh10 (talk) has deleted the Sourdough FAQs website entry in the External Links section of the Sourdough article. The site is a collection of the best postings to the Usenet newsgroup rec.food.sourdough and links to older FAQs. The site is is entirely non-commercial and without advertising. Crh10 (talk) feels this entry should be deleted because I am the editor of the site.

Would another editor, if they feel the Sourdough FAQ site is worthy of inclusion in the External Links section, please revert Crh10 (talk)'s deletion. Many thanks, Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 21:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Darrell. Instead of directly reverting to add it, I used the guideline of WP:EL and added a link to DMOZ instead. Most of the links were to personal websites, so DMOZ seems like a great option here. tedder (talk) 15:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Good solution, thanks. Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 17:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

As a general rule, more sour breads are made with a liquid starter

Extensive experimentation has demonstrated the "sourness" of a batch of bread is manipulated by tweaking many parameters. Other factors controlling the sourness are the particular strain of lactobacillus bacteria, the temperature at which the dough is fermented, the amount of time the dough is fermented and the dominant type of flour used to feed the starter. Long story short, your milage will vary. Johndur (talk) 17:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)JohnDur

Invalid reference?

I've just tidied up section 1, which referred to "S. cerieisiea". That's clearly a typo for Saccharomyces cerevisiae: Google finds over 2 million hits for Saccharomyces cerevisiae and no reference whatsoever for S. cerevisiea, so I've fixed it. But what about the reference? If it's only quoted because of the misspelling, it should be removed. I don't have access to the book, so I've left it for the time being. Groogle (talk) 03:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Reference looks fine. I was able to get a snippet up on Google Books, searching in that book, using the term "Saccharomyces cerevisiae". The snippet read:

“ Page 370

YEAST The most often reported yeast species in sourdough, regardless of the

flour type and fermentation conditions, are Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Barber et

...

”

Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 15:18, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The quotes that Groogle mentions are actually italic markup. While italics may be used for emphasis, my limited understanding of one Manual of Style page is that such "lower taxa" should be italicized. Gzuufy (talk) 19:18, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Punctuation changes may also change citations

This sentence is currently not cited, and it is my belief that it needs to be cited:

"San Francisco sourdough is a Type I sourdough that has a pH range of 3.8-4.5 and is fermented at 20-30°C; Saccharomyces exiguus leavens the dough, Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and L. pontis predominate a lactic-acid bacterial flora that includes L. fermentum, L. fructivorans, L. brevis, and L. paralimentarius."

That sentence was originally joined to the sentence currently following it using a colon instead of a period. The sentence following it currently reads "In Type II sourdoughs Saccharomyces cerevisiae[5] leavens the dough, L. pontis and L. panis predominate the flora.[6][7]". The use of a period instead of a colon does improve the paragraph's readability, but it also changes [6] & [7]'s logistical nesting, thus separating the first sentence from the citation.

One method to fix this is simply to copy the citation [6] & [7] to the end of the first sentence, which is currently my preferred solution. Another might be to move all the citations to the end of the paragraph, though that then removes all the citations from the specifically relevant text. Does anyone have any thoughts or input? Gzuufy (talk) 16:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll go with whichever you wish, restore the colon or move the citations. Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Introduction + § preparation ("starer")

• Introduction + § preparation ("starer") : 20-25% of what ? Is it that the starter should be 20% of the final dough batch, or that you take only 20% of the starter and save (and refresh) the remaining 80% for the next batch ? Herix (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

You mean these two sentences(?):

“ Sourdough bread is made by using a small amount (20-25 percent) of starter dough (sometimes known as the "mother dough"[1]), which contains the culture, and mixing it with new flour and water.

... Traditionally, a certain amount of sourdough starter (somewhere around 20-25% on average, depending on the water content of the starter) is mixed into the bread dough, and the bread is kneaded and allowed to rise as normal.

”

I read the sentences as 20-25% of the final dough batch. There are two different processes being presented in the first sentence, which may not be an optimal presentation. One is about a process for making the starter dough (utilizing refreshments or a series of builds), the other for using the starter to make the final dough prior to baking "sourdough bread". The parenthetical containing "mother" first showed up in this diff. It has had a few revisions since then. Perhaps it should be separated out for greater clarity? Gzuufy (talk) 20:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I changed the sentence's double-process issue by separation of ideas and paragraphs, and moved a few other sentences around for, hopefully, increased clarity. The bulk of the changes can be seen in this diff. The main thrust of the edits were to separate "sourdough starter" (which is in theory recycled endlessly) and "sourdough bread" (an allusion to final dough and bake) processes and placement in separate paragraphs. Feel free to review the changes and edit further if needed.Gzuufy (talk) 17:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

This is still unclear. Does 20-25% represent the ratio of starter to new dough in the final batch or the ratio of starter to the final batch (i.e. starter + new dough)? Marshall46 (talk) 16:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't write that sentence, so can only guess what the author had in mind. I would interpret 20-25% as a true percentage (of the total weight), simply because it doesn't indicate otherwise. If you wish to try to improve the section, I can suggest Pain Au Levain Production (cited in article), and Lactic and Volatile (C2-C5) Organic Acids of San Francisco Sourdough French Bread" by Galal et al. for references, and if so, the range of those two docs assert is 15-50% (for 5-2 respective hours of fermentation time), with a midpoint of 32.5%, but both of those docs seem to be based on the flour weight of the new dough. Thus, I believe the 20-25% range (somewhat narrow) are probably true percentages based on total dough weight. Gzuufy (talk) 22:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

From reading I find that the ratio referred to is the ratio by weight of flour in the starter to that in the final dough. Marshall46 (talk) 10:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Sourdough misleadingly associated with low living standards

I have an issue with one of the comments in the "History of Sourdough" section:
"...sourdough has become less common as the standard of living has risen; it has been replaced by the faster growing baker's yeast, sometimes supplemented with longer fermentation rests to allow for some bacterial activity to build flavor."

It may be true that sourdough has become less common, and that living standards have increased, but one certainly doesn't imply the other. In fact, if one uses bread quality as a measuring tool for those otherwise arbitrary "living standards", it could be argued that they have significantly decreased in the last 100 years. Could someone please cite an article showing a causal relationship, or I suggest deletion. Or maybe change to something like: "sourdough has become less common as the 20th and 21st centuries have progressed."--Guid123 (talk) 12:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree. The issue is better described as "as people and culture have shifted to demanding immediate satisfaction, the popularity of this bread has fallen, as it takes a few minutes of planning and some time to leaven"....or some such. The issue has NOTHING to do with income, and everything to with the "mcdonaldiazation" of society. I ought to trademark that term... Kenfo 0 (talk) 23:33, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Sourdough starter

I can't believe no one has pounced on this, as it is necessarily wrong: "Sourdough starter is made with a small amount of old dough saved from a prior batch". This is known as "recursion", wherein you are defining something by using the term in a definition. In other words, one could NEVER have made sourdough, if one had to have sourdough made before (you couldn't make it before, because it hadn't been made yet). It leads to a conundrum.

In reality, there is a way to first make a starter, which is not being described in this sentence. Once one has THAT starter, one can then keep a portion of the new dough to use as starter for the next batch. This is not at all pedantic. I am a first time sourdough maker...according to that sentence, I can't make sourdough because I didn't in the past. Just post how to make the starter, clearly and concisely. Kenfo 0 (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

As your last paragraph, second sentence demonstrates ("... keep a portion of the new dough ...") there does seem some confusion regarding what is "new dough" vs. what is "old dough". Anyway, the banner at the bottom of the article page links to Wikibooks Cookbook Sourdough starter, wherein two procedures are documented, one of which seems to be what you are looking for. The citation to Calvel's Taste of Bread also documents a similar method, but it's coded with the French name primary-culture levain, and may require the reading of the cited work. So, the information you seek does appear linked in the article in at least two places, but I agree it's not in the introductory paragraph you excerpted. Anyway, one could use the term recursion, though I'd prefer the phrase multiple iterations, in a description of the process of making sourdough starter when starting the process from only new dough. Gzuufy (talk) 06:08, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Compared to bread made with commercial yeast

I edited this passage: "Obtaining a satisfactory rise from sourdough, however, is more difficult than with packaged yeast, because the LAB almost always outnumber the yeasts by a factor of between 100:1 and 1000:1, and the acidity of the bacteria inhibits the yeasts' gas production."

It would be more accurate to say that the rise takes longer - it is not necessarily more difficult. As I understand it, it is not the high ratio of LAB to yeast that makes a sourdough rise slowly, but the fact that the wild yeasts in a sourdough are not as active as the cultivated yeast used in large-scale commercial baking. It is misleading to say that the acidity of the bacteria inhibits the yeast's gas production, because in the symbiosis between LAB and yeast in a sourdough, it is the activity of the LAB that facilitates the yeast and hence gas production. Moreover, yeast can tolerate a more acid environment than Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis. Marshall46 (talk) 10:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

The document now reads "Obtaining a satisfactory rise from sourdough takes longer than in a dough leavened with packaged yeast because the yeast in a sourdough is less vigorous."

I have actually wondered about this. One often uses a lot more sourdough than one would otherwise use dried yeast which should compensate somewhat.

It seems as if there are several factors that would cause an increased rising time.

• Less sugar in the sourdough recipe (must first convert flour to sugars to feed the yeast).
• Time to generate the sour flavor.
• Quality of the sourdough & the dried yeast.

Perhaps one should say something like "Obtaining a bold sour flavor & using a reduced sugar content in the bread can lead to increased rising times compared to packaged yeast products."Keelec (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Biology and chemistry of sourdough: "Put sections on taxonomy together, but is this information needed here?"

RE this diff. I wrote that sentence. Why? Because when studying science reports (not consumer-level oversimplifications), it appeared that different studies conducted at different times by different scientists in different areas found differently named organisms in sourdoughs. However, these apparent differences were sometimes, perhaps often, explained by classification differences, not actual differences in the organisms found. I presume that others who study this subject would be confused by the same differences, unless it is explicitly stated that there are many names given by different scientists at different times for what are essentially the same or related organisms. Gzuufy (talk) 21:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Good point about a confused subject. Can you add this explanation to the article? Marshall46 (talk) 18:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Copy edit/improving article

I've done a bit of copy editing, but more is needed. Can we improve the article by separating the following sub-topics:

• a summary of the microbiology,
• an account of sourdough manufacture that takes the essence of it and does not confuse the narrative with digressions into local practice,
• a separate account of the diverse methods employed in different localities, and
• a history of the product?

Marshall46 (talk) 09:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Re-organised the article, added subheadings, removed some repetition. Could still do with a bit of tidying up. Marshall46 (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Clarification of taxonomy of LAB

I have contributed to the section on this, but I would appreciate some help from editors who know more about it than I do. Hammes and Vogel distinguished LAB that were obligately homofermentative, facultatively heterofermentative and obligately heterofermentative. Are they obligate/facultative in relation to their need for/tolerance of oxygen or in relation to the way they metabolise sugars? Marshall46 (talk) 09:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Flavour

I did a copy-edit and removed the statement that the age of a bakery's sourdough contributes to the flavour of its bread. It's not the age of the culture that accounts for the flavour, but, as the article says, the method used, the ratio of flour to water, the ratio of new dough to fermented dough, the rest time, air temperature, humidity and elevation, all of which contibute to the microbiology of the sourdough. Marshall46 (talk) 13:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Clarification request

In a version of the article that existed a few days ago, a sentence read, "In San Francisco sourdough, back-slopping[30] is 40% based upon total dough weight, and may be expressed as a refreshment ratio of old:new dough,[31] or 66⅔ percent." Today the sentence reads as "In San Francisco sourdough, the ratio[9] is 40% based upon total dough weight, or 66.66 percent.[clarification needed]" As the sentence reads today it makes no sense as 40% ≠ 66%. The deleted link to the ratio page seems related to the need for additional clarification. Also, there is no longer a link to the percent page, which says, "Sometimes due to inconsistent usage, it is not always clear from the context what a percentage is relative to." Gzuufy (talk) 07:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I am responsible for that bad edit. Presumably the meaning is that in San Francisco starters, old dough is 40% of the total weight, or 66% of the new dough. I will edit accordingly. Marshall46 (talk) 09:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

That is an excellent phrase, "old dough is 40% of the total weight, or 66% of the new dough" I wish I had written it that way. Such phrasing gives a simple and elegant example of how equivalent figures are expressed in different ways by different authors. It may be worth mentioning that is how Valcheva et al suggested, with the two synonyms expressed as ratio: "sourdough/dough". Gzuufy (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The article says: "The ratio of fermented dough to fresh dough is critical in the development and maintenance of a starter. This ratio is called "inoculation" or the "refreshment ratio". Higher refreshment ratios are associated with greater microbial stability in the sourdough." Has this been stated correctly? Surely microbial stability is encouraged by adding a lot of fresh dough to the old, fermented dough, i.e., by a low refreshment ratio. Or has "refreshment ratio" been incorrectly defined as "ratio of fermented dough to fresh dough", and should it be "ratio of fresh dough to fermented dough"? Pelarmian (talk) 16:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure it matters which way it is stated, except to be stated in a way that avoids the doubling error. 66 2/3% is closer to 100%, so perhaps is easier to remember, but 150% works too, as long as it is stated what the percent is based on. In either case, it's difficult to accidentally construe it as a doubling.

Khachatourians made a statement similar to the first part of the phrase RE higher refreshment ratios relative to microbial stability, and if I recall correctly, that statement was made relative to the total dough. Khachatourians seems to relate it to a stable vs. variable pH, which in resting dough drops as acids are produced, and rises as new dough is added. It seems getting a more consistent or narrower range of pH values through a refreshment interval is the stated idea regarding microbial stability. Khachatourians asserts that's why sourdough bakeries can say, and not be misleading, that their culture is the same as it was 150, or however many, years ago. Why not just quote it?

Khachatourians quote: "23.3.1.4. > Amount of Seed Sour and Different Additives > The amount of seed sour influences, above all, the rate of acidification in the sour-dough. It is important that the amount of active microorganisms in the seed sour is high enough to decrease the pH of the dough, before the naturally occurring micro-organisms in the flour have begun to outgrow, thus influencing the properties of the final sourdough. A suitable amount of seed sour, calculated on the total bread dough weight, is about 2-20%. However, by using a higher amount of seed sour, the final sourdough will be more stable from one day to another. For example, in the San Francisco sourdough, the amount of seed sour is about 40%, which means that the initial pH value in the new sourdough is as low as about 4.4-4.5 (220). This is one of the explanations as to why this sourdough is said to be the same today as it was 100 years ago. When using a defined freeze-dried starter culture, an amount of about 1-2 X 10^7 CFU/g flour is often recommended by the producers."

Personally, I have no idea whether that statement is accurate, merely that's what he said, and there does seem to be a logical basis for it.

I wrote the other phrase of the sentence, while recalling an old wikipedia page "To add more flour and water, it is generally best advised to first reduce the amount of starter by half and replacing it with a 50-50 mix of flour and water" (note 50-50 didn't refer to the old/new ratio, rather the hydration, the "starter by half" is the portion in question), one that seems to be a generalized meme of some kind. Lots of folks report online that their dough smells strong, off somehow, smells bad, and that's what seems to happen with 1/2:1/2 refreshments of any significant resting time. The Paris baker's levain or leavening technique of the 1800s, (Henry Watts gives a summary of that technique) is also 50% new dough or old dough based on total weight, 100% based on new dough or old dough weight, or more commonly as dough "doublings", another ambiguous baking phrase with multiple levels of meanings. The total dough based on the new or old dough weight could even be stated as 200%. A bunch of different 1800s-era publications all carried the same basic instruction set, though they were often edited slightly differently. Watts version seemed more complete than some other versions of mostly the same text, which is why I used it over some of the others when I did my study of it. The Paris Baker's Levain technique used a lot of beer yeast during the multiple final dough refreshments going into and during the baking refreshment cycle. They mostly used a doubling ratio, except for one refreshment, the refreshment from Levain de seconde to Levain de taut point, probably making it too acid at all other times except maybe the fastest 3 hour followed by 2 hour refreshment/baking intervals (use of acceleration). Their technique of the day is fascinating and worthy of spreadsheet study and analysis. Gzuufy (talk) 01:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your thorough reply. This can be confusing to the non-expert, and I think it's important that in the article we express ratios consistently, using the same denominator throughout, whether it's old dough or total dough. Pelarmian (talk) 10:06, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Care and thought in editing is always appreciated--as far as I know--Wikipedia wide! I don't have any objections to simplification, in the pursuit of clarity, except where it oversimplifies. I'm shortening my reply down from something much longer, hopefully it makes sense.

I was thinking about this refreshment statistic from a "top down" vs. "bottom up" perspective, as well as writing sourdough formulas for spreadsheets. There is a top-down component to the calculations, and there is a bottom-up one, and they meet at the Final dough. An analogy to double-entry bookkeeping could provide meaning. The formula Equity = Assets − Liabilities, rearranged to Assets = Equity + Liabilities, looks strangely similar to Total Dough = Final Dough + Starter, (itself similar to sponge & dough) though it seems the latter should be rearranged to Total Dough - Starter = Final Dough to provide the needed baking context from the point of view of the baker as the ingredients are weighed and doughs sequentially assembled.

I was just looking through a few books I have on the subject, and Hamelman seems to follow this pattern the most closely, labeling "Total Dough" instead as "Overall Formula". I don't think Hamelman's work titled Bread is listed as a reference on this sourdough page. That seems to be an oversight! Hamelman often prints a percentage factor for the pre-ferment at the top of many of the given sourdough formulas. That statistic broadly seems calculated the same way as Khachatourians, based on a total. However, Hamelman specifies the ratio as "pre-fermented flour" then lists its percentage based on total flour. That makes a lot of sense to me. What do you think? Gzuufy (talk) 15:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Confused 'Starter' section

The starter section reads:

'The bacteria ferment sugars that the yeast cannot metabolise [...] are metabolised by yeast, [...]'

What does that exactly mean ???

eBug (talk) 18:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Your question is answered in the chemistry section, some of the same references may apply. "L. sanfranciscensis prefers to consume maltose, while C. milleri cannot consume maltose." One of the older revisions of that sentence said, "... C. milleri is maltase negative." Gzuufy (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Lactose Intolerance - sourdough ok?

I see this question all over the web but don't have a definitive answer. Anyone? tharsaile (talk) 13:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, I found the answer. Lactic acid ≠ lactose and is fine. tharsaile (talk) 22:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Train Wreck

User Gzuufy repeatedly reverts contributions of perfectly valid information and replaces it with his own inaccurate information reflecting his incomplete knowledge of the subject. The article contains too much detail in places and is generally poorly written. It is too full of inaccuracies to be considered definitive and has deteriorated into a major-league train wreck. 69.12.176.20 07:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not know enough about this topic to comment, but for what it's worth, this is a common problem on many other types of Wikipedia articles. And it's rare that several contributors join to stop the problem because they are intimidated by the very aggressive contributor. Peter K Burian (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's perhaps time that some of us got the article back into some sort of order. I've made a start. Many more references need to be found: and if parts are wrong, they need to be removed or rewritten, and cited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Amish Friendship Bread

Can't find any sources that say feed starter with potato flakes. Looked at about 20. Can you substantiate or cite where they say to use potato flakes? Thanks. 71.139.163.158 (talk) 02:54, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Popularity and uses of sourdough

Sourdough is becoming more and more popular. I don't know about the US as I haven't been there recently, but virtually all supermarkets in the UK carry sourdough(even if it is often fake)[1], and all artisan bakers. EG "The fall in popularity of the ordinary white sliced pan owes to a growing health-awareness among the public, as well as to the rise in popularity of speciality breads such as ciabattas and sourdough loaves from supermarket bakeries"[2] Sourdough Is a Status Symbol for Serious Bakers " In Sweden, sourdough has become part of modern food culture, birthing the“sourdough hotel” at the Urban Deli in Stockholm. It’s a place for people leave their starters in the knowledge that they’ll be well looked after—like a dog in a kennel—while they’re away from home." - although Dan Lepard notes it's not yet mainstream. Doug Weller talk 12:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Missed this about Singapore.[3] Doug Weller talk 12:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

In Ontario, Canada, I rarely see sourdough bread in supermarkets. Perhaps bakery specialty shops do stock them. But according to this article, it is popular for home baking. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/programs/metromorning/sourdough-bread-baking-1.3534921 Peter K Burian (talk) 18:42, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Uses (and the lead)

Sourdough bread, yes. But sourdough ice cream "takes the sourdough bread "cult" of recent years to its natural conclusion, by using sourdough as an ingredient and flavouring in something beyond just bread. This idea is catching on in the UK, where a cluster of restaurants, bakeries and breweries are spiking everything from chocolate and pasta to croissants and beer with sourdough's fermented notes and robust texture."{http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/sourdough-has-escaped-the-bakery-and-is-now-found-in-pasta-beer-and-even-ice-cream-10454687.html} Doug Weller talk 12:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)