Talk:South Kitsap High School

photo request

I am asking for a photo of the school for the info box. The current image is of an ROTC event at the school and is not an appropriate image to illustrate the infobox. I would move it elsewhere in the article, but the article does not even mention the ROTC at this school. I'm going to remove the image. Meters (talk) 22:36, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Notable Alumni

Lists of notable alumni generally include only alumni who have Wikipedia articles to show their notability, and reliable references to show their attendance. It is acceptable to have the attendance reference for an individual in their Wikipedia article rather than in the school article. Exceptions are sometimes (rarely) made for alumni who would clearly qualify for an article if one were written.

Re this edit [1], Trevor Hanson does not have a Wikipedia article to show his notability. According to the supplied reference for his attendance he played minor league baseball for six years, and never played in the major leagues. It is not correct to claim that he was a "former baseball player for the St. Louis Cardinals. As for his notability, we do not presume notability for major league players, let alone for minor leaguers. There may be enough coverage of him to show his notability, but we cannot presume that. If there are sufficient reliable sources to show that he is notable then an article should be written for him before he is listed in the Notable alumni list, per WP:WTAF. Meters (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

For reference, I'm posting here after seeing something posted about it posted at the Help Desk. While it's not necessary per WP:LSC and WP:SOURCELIST for individual entries in embedded lists to Wikipedia notable in their own right, generally the first WP:CSC for "Notable people" types of lists is that each entry have a stand-alone article written about them or at least be a very good candidate for such an article when one doesn't already exist. While it's certainly may be true that Hanson is an alumnus of the school, it kind of comes down to WP:NOTEVERYTHING (at least in my opinion) and also to the fact that each other entry on the list does already have a stand-alone article written about them. There may be lots of people who one might try to argue deserve to be mentioned in a list such as this (many secondary schools have their own "Hall of Fame" of "notable alumni" for example), but some kind of "bright-line rule" needs to be established for this particular article for Wikipedia to prevent "random" names from being added from hereon. It seems that when it comes to lists such as this, the first and most basic criteria is that an article about the subject already exists or could reasonably expected to exist, which doesn't seem to be the case here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You're sure about that, Marchjuly? By that logic almost all of the players in the Minor League Baseball rosters lists should be deleted. Say it ain't so, Joe! Yappy2bhere (talk) 22:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCONTENT and WP:ALLORNOTHING arguments don't usually work too well when it comes to Wikipedia dicussions; so, it's probably best to stick to what's being discussed with respect to this article. A team roster seems to me to be a finite list not only in terms of those on the roster, but also when they are on the roster; so, there is already at least one common selection criterion inherent to the list: someone is either a member of the team at that time or they're not. I don't think the same can be said for a "notable person" list such as this, Who should be included is perhaps a bit more subjective in a sense, which is why the primary criterion for inclusion often is that the subject already have a Wikipedia article written about them. In some cases (for example, a well-known school with lots of "notable" alumni), there might additional criteria established for determining who gets mentioned in the parent article about the school itself and who get relegated to a child article which is simply a WP:SAL for the school's notable alumni. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. This is covered by WP:NLIST. The team roster itself is a notable topic, and the finite number of entries (players) do not need to be individually notable. School alumni lists are, instead, actually lists of notable alumni, being listed because they are both alumni and notable. The individual entries do need to be notable. There is no evidence that the minor league baseball player in question is notable. Meters (talk) 08:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:NLIST isn't relevant. This is an embedded list, not a standalone list. Different inclusion criteria, as I've already explained. If School alumni lists are, instead, actually lists of notable alumni then you can surely cite a policy or guideline to that effect. Bated breath... Yappy2bhere (talk) 18:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You were suggesting that By that logic almost all of the players in the Minor League Baseball rosters lists should be deleted. WP:NLIST explains why they do not need to be notable. As for the need for the need for notability of alumni, just look at the header... "Notable alumni" Meters (talk) 19:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Well why didn't you say that in the first place? "Notable alumni" is visible text in a main space article. "Notable" in the world at large is decidedly not WP:N (a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article), which any WP editor will tell you is a nearly unfathomable concept for those who aren't editing WP. I can't imagine why you'd think that the section title would mandate an editing guideline without such a guideline in hand. Yappy2bhere (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Alumni lists are not lists of all alumni. They are lists of notable alumni. See WP:ALUMNI. You have not show that the person in question is notable. Meters (talk) 20:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No one's suggested that an alumni list is a list of all alumni. I've satisfied WP:V with a WP:RS, which satisfies the guideline you cited. It also makes that alum notable in the sense readers of this article understand the word. "Notable alumni" speaks to the reader. It is not placed as a constraint on the editor. Yappy2bhere (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:ALUMNI says Inclusion in Lists of alumni included as part of a large article should be determined by WP:SOURCELIST, WP:SOURCELIST says [A]ll individual items on the list must follow Wikipedia's content policies: the core content policies of Verifiability (through good sources in the item's one or more references), No original research, and Neutral point of view. Yappy2bhere (talk) 21:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Don't twist my words then cluck your tongue, Marchjuly. I offered the minor league rosters as comparable examples of WP:notable articles that contain a list with WP:NONNOTABLE members. An embedded list, "In popular culture" or the like, might have better illustrated the point. However, the Meters' objection, and perhaps yours too, seems predicated on the notion that main space prose dictates inclusion criteria here. Have I got that right, or no? (And why does NONNOTABLE have to be capitalized?) Yappy2bhere (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• [I]t kind of comes down to WP:NOTEVERYTHING You'll have to explain what you mean by that, but probably not. WP:V is like list-icide. There were sources for every one of the first 7 alumni in the list primarily because 6 of them were professional athletes, and recruiters and gamblers care about their high school careers. Only half of the supporting cites were available in the linked articles, so it seems WP:V (and the aversion to citing sources) is sufficient to prevent WP:INDISCRIMINATE additions and WP:N almost no help at all.
• each other entry on the list does already have a stand-alone article written about them. Not surprising, with editors culling entries without them. What's your point?
• some kind of "bright-line rule" needs to be established for this particular article ... to prevent "random" names from being added Really? Did you find examples in the edit history?
• In ... a well-known school with lots of "notable" alumni ... there might additional criteria You mean like this. Not many of those; this school isn't one of them. Note that not all members of the subsidiary list have WP articles.
• the first and most basic criteria... No, the first and most basic criteria are given by the guidelines, and the guideline criteria have been satisfied.

Yappy2bhere (talk) 00:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it best from here on if "notable" is qualified to clarify whether you mean the vernacular or WP:N. Also, I assume anything the reader can see in the article without clicking "edit" is vernacular prose. Yappy2bhere (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)