Talk:Southtyroleans

Standardgerman article on wikipedia

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:320luca/S%C3%BCdtiroler 320luca (talk) 17:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Name

Please do not change Southtyroleans in the title or text to South Tyroleans. Nobody expect a tiny Percentage of Natives writes that or identifies as such anymore. (south tyroleans= a political phrase for people who still think we should unite with Nordtyrol, introduced by Sdtiroler Freiheit Party which has under 10percent votes) and accordingvto the ((THIS)article, 80percent feel as southtyoleans! 9percebt tyrolean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 320luca (talk • contribs) 23:36, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? "Southtyroleans" isn't proper English. The place is written South Tyrol in English, not "Southtyrol". You can't apply German compounding rules to English.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:30, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's not a word in English. If this is a notable topic, it should use the native name. I presume it's not the same as South Tyroleans (which is English) and which would refer to all folk from South Tyrol. Bermicourt (talk) 20:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

There is no more historical Region Tyrol as a legal Entity.

Strictly speaking South Tyroleans are People from Bundesland Tirol who live in the Southern Parts, be that Southern Parts of Nordtyrol or Easttyrol.

Southtyroleans on the other Hand are the People of the Province Südtirol. 320luca (talk) 14:06, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

You're ignoring what we've told you: there is no word "Southtyrol" or "Southtyrolean" in English. If you're translating "Südtiroler" than the correct English is "South Tyrolean", just as "Südtirol" is "South Tyrol". I'm not even sure what distinction in German you're trying to make, but this one definitely doesn't exist in English.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Unbalanced POV

This article makes multiple claims about South Tyrol having a unique language and identity. Given the POV expressed by the author elsewhere, this is not surprising, but the article as it currently stands is filled with WP:SYNTH and WP:OR to support this position (witness also the rather surprising claims about whether to write the name as "South Tyroleans" or "Southtyroleans" above).

Just to point out some of the problem:

1. from the lead This Group of Immigrants was lured with economic subsidies and subsidised housing in the Italianisation Campaing of Fascist Italy after the Illegal Annexation in 1919. The annexation was agreed/acknowledged to by Austria when they signed the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye - it is not illegal.
2. The lead states: When asked the Southtyroleans dont consider themselves as neither Tyrolean, Austrian, German or Italian. The source cited quotes a single South Tyroler as saying this (Der wohl berühmteste Südtiroler, Reinhold Messner, zählt sich zu keiner der Gruppen: „Ich bin kein Deutscher, kein Österreicher, kein Italiener – sondern ich bin Südtiroler. Eventuell noch Tiroler.“ - furthermore, he clearly states he might consider himself a Tyroler, contradicting the text
3. The article uses various quotes to establish that "Southtyrolean" is an independent language from German, but quotes sources that refer to it as German-speaking (the Die Welt article already referred to above), a survey by the provincial government that divides the population between German-, Ladin-, and Italian-speaking, and another source that says that Fest steht sicherlich eines: Die Verbindung zum deutschen und österreichischen Sprach- und Kulturraum ist für die deutschsprachigen Südtiroler ohne Zweifel gegeben; ("One thing is certain: the connection to the German and Austrian language and cultural area is without doubt a given for German-speaking South Tyrolers").
4. It cites the provincial government for the existence of three "Volksgruppen" (ethnic groups) when in fact the source says "Sprachgruppen" (language groups), and then refers to one as Native Southtyrolean speaking People when the source says: In Südtirol gibt es drei Sprachgruppen: die deutsche, italienische und ladinische Sprachgruppe ("In South Tyrol there are three languistic groups: the German, Italian, and Ladin language groups")
5. It claims Contrary to popular belief, the Native "Volksgruppe" [...] do not speak "Newhighgermam-Scriptlanguage" (Neuhochdeutsche Schriftsprache)) as their mother tongue, but Southtyrolean ("Sidtiroularisch"), a Dialect of the Southern Bavarian Language ("Bairisch"). This is cited to here, but the source says: Die folgende Karte zeigt die Großregionen und Bundesländer sowie im Hintergrund die Gliederung der deutschen Dialekte. ("The following map shows the regions and federal states as well as in the background the division of German dialects")
6. It uses a broken link referring to the International Organization for Standardization as classifying South Tyrolean as a separate language, but I can find no such information on their website, and why would this organization's classification matter anyway?
7. This quote We consider dialects from this continuum that are spoken in the Netherlands and Belgium to be dialects of Dutch, and dialects from the continuum spoken in Germany, Switzerland and Austria to be dialects of German—for entirely nonlinguistic reasons. is from a website discussing Norwegian dialects. As it doesn't discuss South Tyrolean specifically, it is an example of WP:SYNTH, and is, moreover, simply referring to the old debate about language vs. dialect (which has no linguistic basis ever): A language is a dialect with an army and a navy.
8. This quote The difference between Southtyrolean (Southbavarian) and Standard High German (Standarddeutsch) is larger than the difference between Danish and Norwegian or between Czech and Slovak as such, there is disagreement regarding its classification. is from the website of the Förderverein Bairische Sprache und Dialekte e.V.. It does indeed argue that Bavarian (not "Southtyrolean") is a different language from German. Furthermore, given the preponderance of sources referring to it as a dialect, it is not WP:BALANCED - it is a minority opinion.
9. This quote An ethnic group ethnic group [...] is an ethnic community characterised by features such as its own language, culture or tradition. It does not form a state of its own in its homeland or is domiciled outside the state of its nationality. (national minority) is from a source that is not properly cited and thus I cannot access. It is nevertheless obvious WP:SYNTH because it does not discuss South Tyroleans.
10. Much of the other information is simply unsourced and/or irrelevant (e.g. what South Tyroleans call Germans).

This article needs to be moved back to draft space.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:05, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

2. I deleted the sentence so Criticpoint is no longer an Issue.--320luca (talk) 14:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)