Talk:Southwestern Tai languages

ethnologue classification to be moved to same level as other classifications

Hi, I intend moving the last part which covers the Ethnologue classification to be at the same level as the others. Please raise any objection in the next month. The reason is that as presented, the two parts seem to be given different weights when they are in fact just based on different research carried out for different reasons and with different preconceptions.

I would also appreciate any further references in support of Chamberlain please. In particular, any support for putting Phu Thai with Siamese (standard Thai) and not with Lao/Isan. This is because it matches my own original research in this area. Unfortunately original research can not be used.109.148.2.55 (talk) 08:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I think we should only give sourced classifications, and E16 does not provide a ref. IMO we shouldn't include the Ethn. classification at all, unless we can determine where it comes from. — kwami (talk) 09:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Classification source: See discussion November 2013

Unclear

09:05, 4 November 2013‎ Kwamikagami Undid revision 580122890 by Pawyilee unclear: does it not mean "adult"?

It's unclear to me why you reverted before asking. It is also unclear to me if you downloaded the reference and read it. Could clear up those two points and n take it from there?—talk) 14:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

If it's unclear it doesn't belong. If it can be fixed up, great. — kwami (talk) 15:10, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

How about helping me fix it. The reference from The Literary Heritage of Laos that you reverted reads:

Traditionally, these people called themselves according to the place of their settlement, combining the term “Tai” (man) with the place name, as for example Tai Müang Phuan, Tai Müang Swa (Luang Phabang).

My wife who is of the Isan people says that is still true today. The RID definitions after being absent a few weeks are now back online:

"พจนานุกรม ฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน พ.ศ. ๒๕๔๒" (in Thai). Royal Institute of Thailand. 1999. Retrieved November 04, 2013. ไท ๑ (โบ) น. ไทย เช่น ปีโถะหนไทกัดเหมา. (จารึกสยาม). {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help); horizontal tab character in |quote= at position 54 (help)

The first definition is flagged as "(ancient)" or obsolete noun meaning "Thai" as in "example given" flagged as "(Siamese inscription)." The text of the inscription can be widely found in the Thai blogosphere but without translation. The word โถะ seems so obsolete that no definition can be found, but as the preceding word is YEAR, the likely literal translation is:

[the] YEAR [of the animal [TO] [was the] TIME TAI BITE COMPLETE.

The second definition:

ไท ๒ น. ผู้เป็นใหญ่.

may indeed be translated as ADULT, but the literal translation is PERSON BE BIG, where Thai เป็น "BE" is active voice. Examples supporting this:

So Sethaputra, สอ เสถบุตร [in Thai] (2542 BE/AD 1999). New Model Thai-English Dictionary. Bangkok: ไทยวัฒนาพานิช : Thai Watthanā Phānit. p. 143. ISBN 974-08-3253-9. ไท, ไท้ noun (poetic, literary, obsolete) a lord, a boss {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link)

Glenn Slayden, ed. (August 8, 2013). "3 results for: [Thai] [begins with] เป็นใหญ่" (Dictionary). Lookup. Thai-language.com. Retrieved 2013-11-07. 1. เป็นใหญ่ bpen^M yai^L adjective, phrase, figurative [is] in charge of; is "the big kahuna"; is the big boss. 2. เป็นใหญ่ bpen^M yai^L adjective [is] a major issue. 3. เป็นใหญ่เป็นโต bpen^M yai^L bpen^M dto:h^M adjective, phrase [is] the boss; more important than others {{cite web}}: horizontal tab character in |quote= at position 75 (help)

Please note the proceeding three definitions are from the THAI literary perspective, not that of the Lao. Note also Thai for Shan people is ไทยใหญ่, literal translation, THAI BIG. IF your objection is that it is unclear as to why Lao/Thai usages should be included in this article, then say so, and recommend where it SHOULD be included. I'd then be happy with something like:

For perspectives on the use of the word Tai in Lao language and Thai language, see entry there.

—Pawyilee (talk) 05:16, 7 November 2013 (UTC) talk:Pawyilee|talk]]) 04:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

We should be able to do better than that. For one thing, it doesn't seem to mean "adult". Also, since it's common across the Kadai languages, we should have a proto-KD reconstruction, which might help with the meaning. — kwami (talk) 08:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

For the record, ผู้เป็นใหญ่ does not mean "adult". It means "person of high status". The Royal Institute Dictionary shows that the terms Tai (ไท) and Thai (ไทย) are poorly distinguished in general Thai language usage. We'd need a better academic source for that. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:32, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I had posted this at the top of the page with reference to the classification of Phutai, but as it contains the Phutai definition of Tai, I'm moving it down here.

Asger Mollerup (10 October 2013). "Phutai studies". Phutai language and culture in Laos and Thailand. Thai-Isan-Lao.com. Phutai is a Tai ethnic group only found in NE-Thailand and in their original habitat of Mid-Laos P.D.R. Phu-Tai (meaning 'human'-Tai or simply: Tai) is as an ethnonym also used (with a different pronunciation) by several different and distantly related Tai groups in N-Vietnam and S-China. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

See image at Human.—Pawyilee (talk) 06:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The image is of an Alak couple in NE Thailand, who are NOT of the Tai people, though by residence, they ARE of the Isan people. Another source found lurking in my computer:

Hugo Yu-Hsiu Lee and Jack Clontz: Reviewing the prehistoric linguistic relationships of the Tai–Kadai language family and its putative linguistic affiliations: a meta–analysis study and abbreviation edition

Abstract. The paper does not purport to provide final answers or solutions to problems associated with the reconstruction of the linguistic prehistory of the Tai-Kadai language family or even less definitive conclusions concerning the ethno-lingustic affiliations or affinities with other language families. Even so, the researcher has the temerity to review research investigations impinging on this topic in the work of archaeologists, geneticists, historians and linguists. Special attention is directed to recent advances in genetic investigations of the peopling of Asia. It is in the context that the researcher discusses what can be inferred from these investigations concerning the prehistoric linguistic relationships between the Tai–Kadai the Austronesian, and the Austro–Tai language families, on the one hand, and the languages of the Baiyue peoples on the other. As such, this review article offers suggestions for reclassifying the Tai–Kadai language family and related language families with which it was associated or had affinities so as to include the Baiyue (or Hundred Yue) languages and some of its subdivisions, including proto–Yaht and proto–Vietnamese in the prehistory of these language groups.

—Pawyilee (talk) 16:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

PS: During the temporary lifting of the JSTOR paywall following the death of Aaron Swartz, I found:

Briggs, Lawrence Palmer. "The appearance and historical usage of the terms Tai, Thai, Siamese and Lao." Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. no. 2 (1949): 60-73. Published by: American Oriental Society. Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/595243 Accessed: 05/05/2012 00:47.

—Pawyilee (talk) 07:42, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Tai/Thai as "person"

Duncan McCargo and Krisadawan Hongladarom. Asian Ethnicity, Volume 5, Number 2, June 2004

One informant explained that people from various Isan provinces might refer to themselves by using ‘thai’ in a compound word with the name of their province, such as ‘Thai-Sarakham’ or ‘Thai-Roi-Et’.³⁹ At first hearing, this sounds like an innocuous conjunction of nationality and province. In fact, it is another contested term. The original meaning of ‘thai’ here is similar to chao or khon (people) written without /y/ (yo yak), henceforth ‘Tai’. Thus ‘Tai-Sarakham’ means ‘people from Mahasarakham’. Similarly, ‘Tai-Krungthep’, used by Isan people, refers to Bangkokians.⁴⁰ However, the younger generation of Isan people is hardly aware of the original meaning of ‘Thai’ or ‘Tai’ in this context. For them, ‘Tai’ is spelled with /y/ (yo yak), and means something related to the Thai people and Thai state. Thus ‘Thai-Isan’ means Thai nationals who are living in Isan. Arguably, the Thai state had colonised the word ‘tai’, changing it from a generic term for people of Tai ethnicity, to a political term connoting citizenship and nationality.... — Contesting Isan-ness

Notes

39 Informant interview 2, 14 July 2000. 40 For a detailed discussion, see Sujit Wongthes, Jek Bon Lao (Chinese On Top of Lao), Sinlapa Wattanatham (Art and Culture Magazine) special issue, June 1987, pp. 13–14.

—Pawyilee (talk) 11:39, 28 November 2013 (UTC)