Talk:Specifications for World War II infantry weapons

Untitled

I'm using this page to work out the bugs in the main article.

Table Discussion

• I'm thinking that I may want to add another number in the "O. Length" column, one for an alternate length of weapons with a folding or retracting stock when shortened. Oberiko
• I also think there may be some merit for columns on type of action and muzzle feed. Oberiko
• Could I get some feedback on listing imperial units as well as metric? My primary concern is that the table will get to cluttered with all that info. Any way to have some kind of "alt" tag on the seperate data elements? Oberiko
  • I think we should change the calibres to reflect whatever the issuing country used- for example, the Enfield No 2 Mk I revolver should have the calibre listed as ".38/200" or ".380 Revolver Mk IIz", whilst the Colt M1911A1 should have the calibre as ".45ACP". The use of metric for all calibres is very confusing, especially when the countries concerned never used the metric designation for the calibres in the first place. If no-one objects, I'll make the appropriate changes after the weekend --Commander Zulu 17:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
• Should two of the three catagories of weapons (Common, S&S) get their own table of specifications or should I just merge them into the one? I don't think prototype weapons really require one. Oberiko

Weapon Discussion

Problems with the Owen:

• Firstly, I'm not sure if it was a common weapon. While the number produced may look small, I don't have much information on weapon distribution among the Australian army, and it may have been relatively common. Oberiko
• Secondly, most sources I've read state that the Owen used the 9mm Parabellum (9x19). I think this is much more likely an error on their part, confusing it with the very similar British 9.1x19.5 SMG round (which is often incorrectly listed as 9mm Parabellum). 9.1x19.5 seems a much more likely choice for a member of the commonwealth. Oberiko
  • The Owen was chambered in 9mm Parabellum (9x19mm), although the inital design called for it to be chambered in .380 Revolver Mk II (AKA .38/200). The Australians captured millions of rounds of 9mm Parabellum ammunition at Tobruk, and the gun was produced in that calibre instead. I'd say it was fairly common in the Pacific Theatre, especially since it was relatively easy (and inexpensive) to make, and was well-suited to jungle warfare. Similarly, the Sten Gun was deliberately designed to use 9mm Parabellum ammunition captured from the Germans. --Commander Zulu 17:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Problems with the M31 "Suomi":

• I'm not sure where to point the link from this weapon. I don't think we want a whole page dedicated to it, so I'm thinking of one that also has other weapons by Aimo Johannes Lahti. Definitely it's predecessor, the M26 at least. Oberiko
• I've also read conflicting numbers on the approximation of weapons produced. Both 62,000 and 80,000. Oberiko

MAS 36:

• Even though this was the "official" weapon by the time of the Battle of France, it was very limited numbers, and only available to the cavalry. To me that hardly merits it as being common. Oberiko

Removed "common" criteria

After some revising in other areas, commonality is pretty poor primary seperator of objects. Instead, I propose that the only restriction be that the weapon have advanced out of the prototype phase and saw some genuine use. Oberiko 15:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Additional categories

So far we still need

• Grenades
• Melee weapons (Knives etc.)
• Anti-tank rifles
• Mortars
• Flame-throwers
• Medium machine guns / GPMGs
• Other weapons (Stg 44 etc.)
• Mines?

Oberiko 15:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Changes & Edits

I've taken the liberty of converting the calibres to their commonly used names- for example, no-one calls .303 British "7.7x57", nor is .45 ACP ever called "11.43x25SR", and I've never, ever heard of .30-06 being called "7.62x63" before.

Changes reflect the modern commercial names of the ammunition in question, as trying to fit "Cartridge, .380" Revolver, Mk IIz" or "Cartridge, Rifle, .303 SAA Ball Mk VII" into the relevant boxes (.38/200 and .303 British respectively) would be a tad bulky and make it all harder to read- hence "6.5 Carcano", "7.7 Arisaka", and so on.

Also, some of the designations have been toyed with slightly, again to reflect more common usage- for example, I've changed "M1911A1 Colt" to "Colt M1911A1", "Mle 1892 Lebel" to "Lebel M1892" and "L-35" to "Lahti L-35".

I've added the following guns to the list:

• Webley Mk IV (.38/200 revolver- the Enfield No 2 Mk I was a copy of this gun, and was a more popular gun that the Enfield No 2 Mk I, as it both single and double action modes of fire)
• Webley Mk VI (.455 calibre revolver of WWI vintage, although still in production until 1926 and used extensively by British and Commonwealth soldiers- Australian and NZ troops were very fond of this revolver because of it's massive stopping power.)

• Smith & Wesson Victory (.38/200 revolver supplied to the British (and the Commonwealth) by the US under Lend-Lease, as well as being used extensively by the US in WWII)

• Smith & Wesson M1917 (.45ACP revolver used by the US, some supplied to the UK under Lend-Lease)

• Browning Hi-Power (9mm Semi-Automatic, used by both the Allies and the Axis forces during the war- especially by Commando units and Armoured unit personnel)

• Lee-Enfield SMLE Mk III* (.303 Bolt-action rifle, standard issue to British & Commonwealth troops during WWII)

• Lee-Enfield No 5 Mk I "Jungle Carbine" (.303 Bolt-action rifle, carbine version of the No 4 Mk I introduced in late 1944, and saw action in the final months of the war in the Pacific Theatre)

• MAS-36 (7.5mm French Bolt-action rifle- although not in widespread use in 1940, they were in the field, and the Germans and Vichy French made use of captured stocks during their occupation of France.)

• Moisin-Nagant M44 Carbine (7.62x54R bolt-action rifle, carbine version of the M91/30, with a fixed folding bayonet. Production commenced in 1944, and they were in the hands of the first troops into Berlin)

• Lewis Gun (.303 British machine gun, also of WWI vintage, but used extensively, especially by NZ troops and reserve units of the British & Commonwealth armed forces)

I'll keep hunting around and see what other firearms I can add to this list, keeping in mind that they'll need to be have been issued on more than a trial level.

So far, some candidates for discussion:

• Lanchester SMG (British copy of the German MP28
• Reising SMG (American SMG)
• DeLisle Commando Carbine (Silenced .45 ACP version of the Lee-Enfield)
• Welrod Silenced Pistol (Silenced .455 semi-auto handgun)

--Commander Zulu 15:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

External links for further research and addition

Suomi

• http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/suomi.html
• http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg52-e.htm
• http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html