Talk:Speculative fiction

Not all correct

Not everything stated in this definition is correct.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 2005-05-09T17:38:49. (talk) 66.61.53.63 (talk)

Please define and describe what you see as wrong - otherwise why should your comment be considered?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackiespeel (talk • contribs) 2005-08-11T10:05:19

Let me try. The basic definition of speculative fiction as fiction that departs from reality is passingly odd. All fiction departs from reality; that is the very meaning of the word fiction. Indeed, to speculate means trying to take a step back and contemplate certain aspects of reality from a distant or detached vantage point. Subsequently, in the resulting fiction (which is inherently free of any slavish duty to strict accuracy or adherence to reality), those aspects of reality are presented in a heightened and often distorted form. The contemplative aspect may be one of delving into a substratum, or of a relating to universal archetypes, or of extrapolation; and typical results are, respectively, horror, fantasy, and sci-fi, although all of the above may occur in any combination. Both fears and dream fulfilment figure prominently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:6C58:E74F:F368:C5D9 (talk) 08:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Article fails to define the difference between speculative fiction and fiction

I’m struggling to see from the definition on this page (and elsewhere to be fair) where the edges of speculative fiction lie. For example I’m sure everyone would say that Bridget Jones’ Diary wasn’t speculative fiction, yet it happens in a parallel world where things always turn out for the best in the end. Can someone explain why all fiction isn’t speculative?Talltim (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC) Talltim (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

That's basically a philosophical question. It has been argued for decades by members of science fiction fandom, albeit mostly tongue-in-cheek, that all fiction is fantasy/speculative fiction, because after all even the most drearily "realistic" of mimetic fictions is nonetheless something somebody made up one day, with all the limitations which that implies. Where you choose to draw the line is almost a matter of taste, really. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:10, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Talltim is right. There's already a word for "just making stuff up" and that word is "Fiction". There are even words like "Fantasy" to include a wild and free disregard for the plausible real world. "Speculative" was used as a qualifier to refer to the subset of made up stuff that could actually happen or could have happened (political dystopias, yes (no "science" required!); wizards & ghosts: no.) But people don't get the difference between limited "speculation" and "just wildly make up anything", so they turn it back into a redundant word that means nothing more than "Fiction".

Words like "speculative", "guess", "conjecture" etc. do not just mean "make up anything." Asked "What's in this box?" Speculations might include "a pencil?" "a dirty bomb?" "an undiscovered Shakespeare manuscript?" But to say "a dragon's egg" or "superman's actual tights" would not be a *sincere* guess. A definition would be less nonsensical if it was required to include a list of the types of "Fiction" that are **not** "Speculative fiction", rather than the uselessly comprehensive: "broad category of fiction encompassing genres with elements that do not exist..." Give examples of where it's inadequate to call something by the long standing word "Fiction", and why it's (apparently?) necessary to **qualify** wizards for example as being "speculative" rather than simply being "Fiction". Do people think wizards are not simply made up fantasy but a subset that is more cautiously restrained and needs a more cerebral qualifier? DKEdwards (talk) 01:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that the word doesn't meet a need. I for one have found that nearly all genres that don't interest me at all in literature or film are in the list of genres in this articles, and none in the list is of any interest to me. So, I guess I am a lover of "non-speculative fiction"? --Anvilaquarius (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking at how this topic is taught and used now in North america, Speculative fiction and Realistic Fiction/Literary realism seem to be commonly understood as different from each other though both are fiction. Copying below text from the Fiction article. The umbrella genre of speculative fiction is characterized by a lesser degree of adherence to realistic or plausible individuals, events, or places, while the umbrella genre of realistic fiction is characterized by a greater degree. For instance, speculative fiction may depict an entirely imaginary universe or one in which the laws of nature do not strictly apply (often, the sub-genre of fantasy). Or, it depicts true historical moments, except that they have concluded in a completely imaginary way or been followed by major new events that are completely imaginary (the genre of alternative history). Or, it depicts impossible technology or technology that defies current scientific understandings or capabilities (the genre of science fiction).

Contrarily, realistic fiction involves a story whose basic setting (time and location in the world) is, in fact, real and whose events could believably happen in the context of the real world. One realistic fiction sub-genre is historical fiction, centered around true major events and time periods in the past.[14] The attempt to make stories feel faithful to reality or to more objectively describe details, and the 19th-century artistic movement that began to vigorously promote this approach, is called literary realism, which incorporates some works of both fiction and non-fiction.

SO basically, Anvilaquarius may like Realistic Fiction over Speculative fictionVinay84 (talk) 14:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Horror fiction

The lead states that speculative fiction contains supernatural or futuristic elements, and that this unmbrella genre includes horror. Although most horror films include such elements, there are horror films which don't. These include: Psycho, The Wicker Man, The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, The Silence of the Lambs, Scream, American Psycho, Saw, Hostel and Sorority Row. Are films in that category not speculative fiction, despite being horror? If so, the article should clarify that not all horror fiction is speculative fiction. Jim Michael (talk) 05:12, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I've previously tried to change the lead to a more encompassing definition, but my edits were always reverted. - Alumnum (talk) 18:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Horror is a form of speculative fiction so yes they are. DarknessGoth777 (talk) 07:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect information about Hippolytus

There is incorrect information about Hippolytus (play) either here or in the article about the play. Here it says, "Euripides (ca. 480–406 BCE) whose play Medea seems to have offended Athenian audiences when he fictionally speculated that shamaness Medea killed her own children instead of their being killed by other Corinthians after her departure, and whose play Hippolytus, narratively introduced by Aphrodite, Goddess of Love in person, is suspected to have displeased his contemporary audiences because he portrayed Phaedra as too lusty."

First, this is not a sentence. There is no predicate in it; it's just one long subject. Second, according to Hippolytus (play), the play which offended Athenians has been lost, and we have no way of knowing whether Aphrodite was involved in it. There are two Hippolytus plays according to the article, the one by Euripides which we have, and a lost one that offended Athenians.

I don't know which is wrong, but in any case, this article doesn't explain how Hippolytus falls into the category of speculative fiction, only that it offended people. Is that really the most important thing? FideliaE (talk) 13:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

A Question on Horror Fiction within Speculative Fiction

I have a question rather than an edit. This is my first interaction with Wikipedia, so if I am off base in making a query, I apologize.

The article states that "This catch-all genre includes, but is not limited to, science fiction, fantasy, horror, slipstream," etc. My question relates specifically to horror. Is it considered that all horror fits within speculative fiction? For example, how do types of horror like Crime Horror, Survival Horror, Historical Horror, Slasher Horror, and Disaster Horror fit within speculative fiction? Does this depend on what the definition of the word "speculative" is? (This question is asked in the context of devising submissions language for an anthology that contains science fiction, fantasy, and horror). The direction of my thoughts at the moment is that Horror is its own super-genre (if that is a term) that contains within it many different horror types, some of which include speculative fiction and some which do not. All thoughts are welcome, especially from whoever moderates the article content.

(I see someone made a related statement under Horror fiction, but my goal is to gain clarification and insights from feedback, not to make a definitive statement.)

DreamForgeOne (talk) 00:48, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@DreamForgeOne Late reply, but this is not a high visibility forum (you might have elicited a reply earlier if you posted at the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Horror or such, but I know well that for a newcomer figuring out where to ask can be daunting). Anyway, I'd say that yes, speculative fiction encompasses horror, although yes, we can run into the blurry boundaries with psychological horror or similar, given that speculative fiction is defined as fiction that "that depart from realism, or strictly imitating everyday reality", or (see discussion below), as "the fantastic". I.e. Lovecraftian horror is obviously speculative fiction, but The Texas Chain Saw Massacre is not very fantastical ("based on true story", etc.). There may be some Venn diagram overlap here, depending on whether a story contains any non-realistic elements. And here your concept of super genre makes some sense - you cannot have science fiction, fantasy, steampunk, etc. that are not part of speculative fiction, but I can see some works of horror as not part of this. Might be fun to dig into sources and see what they say, and then add some notes to the article here (if, hopefully, some media scholars or such made this point elsewhere...). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:24, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

PS. This has been briefly raised above already by @Alumnum and @Jim Michael _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much. We're working on an anthology this year, and the thoughtful response is greatly appreciated. Thank you for the advice on posting to talk pages. All very helpful. DreamForgeOne (talk) 17:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Alt name in Slavic countries: fantastika

@Orchastrattor Why did you remove my note? The term for this, in Slavic countries, is fantastika, and it is occasionally used in English. See https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/fantastika or https://doi.org/10.1080/10611975.2016.1269627 or . See also Talk:Russian_speculative_fiction#Should_Fantastika_redirect_here? (perhaps you missed my reply there). Note that fantastyka =/= fantastyka słowiańska; the latter is a more limited topic we still need to write an article about. But in Polish or Russian and other Slavic languages, fantastyka = speculative fiction (just check wikidata interlanguage links). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

PS. From https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783839440278-004/html (via Wikipedia Library): "I suggest replacing the terms “the fantastic” and “fantasy,” still employed interchangeably to denote all varieties of speculative fiction, with the term “fantastika” introduced by John Clute for all generic literature that is pragmatically and functionally different from mimetic prose". But I don't think we are that yet (as in, common name for what we are discussing here is still "speculative fiction"). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

PPS. Also, this is not a great piece of research (or argument), as she never engages properly with the notion of the term "speculative fiction" as a valid synonym. As for fantasy, she differentiates the genre with a capital letter, so for her, our fantasy is Fantasy, whereas she weirdly (to me, at least) argues that the term fantasy is used as a synonym of fantastika/speculative fiction. Sigh. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remove it, I moved it down to the etymology section alongside all of the other alternate terms. The quotation on Wiktionary gives Ian M. Banks as an example so stating it is limited to Slavic countries is incorrect. There is no indication it would be any more significant than the other alternate terms, and would not make any sense to include unless the loanword took on its own notability. Orchastrattor (talk) 12:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Orchastrattor I see. I did some c/e, and the lead usually should mention alternate names per MOS:LEAD. Btw, what quotation - can you link it? If it is post-2007 then he is probably referring to Clute's concept, and Clute himself admitted he was inspired by the Slavic term. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fantastika - "As literary figures in late 20th-century fantastika, the characters in Banks' first three novels have..."

The point either way is that any language will have its own translation of any given term, they don't make sense to include on enwiki unless its a distinct loanword, at which point it would no longer be correct to say it is a word "in Slavic countries" Orchastrattor (talk) 15:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary is not a reliable source, and I don't see the quote there at all. As for the use in English, I refer you to the reliable, cited and linked above article by Clute, as well as Golovacheva. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)