Talk:Spiegel Grove

Photos

The article includes one nice photo that was uploaded in 2007 (and may or may not be a 2007 photo), but historic photos and additional recent photos, interior and exterior, would add to the article. So photos and/or photo uploads are needed.

• HABS drawings, but seemingly not photos, are available for this site. Search HABS/HAER here
• Some of the NRHP photos linked in article might possibly be public domain, but are not clearly labelled as National Park Service-owned, and so I believe it would be necessary to request permission before using any of those.
• New photos would be helpful.

Merger proposal

It has been suggested that this article be merged with Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center. I posted a note in Talk:Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center to direct discussion to here.

I note that both articles were created back in 2005. I personally think that keeping separate articles, with links to each other, is appropriate. There is a similar issue with the Nixon birthplace and childhood home, vs. the Nixon presidential library at the same location in Yorba Linda California, which i think are in one article, but would be better separated, allowing more extensive treatment in each of their own separate subjects. doncram (talk) 14:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the NHL designation is for the combination of Spiegel Grove, the house, and the Presidential Center, as is clear in the NRHP Inv/Nom document. The NHL is the entire 25 acre area. The presidential library building was built in 1916, added to in 1922, and may be historic and perhaps architecturally interesting on its own. However, I still think a separate article on the Spiegel Grove house is helpful. It should be EXPANDED however, could use much more description based on the NRHP Inv/Nom document. doncram (talk) 14:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Doncram. It's better to keep them separate. clariosophic (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

My primary reasoning behind the merger proposal is this quote from the website of the Hayes Presidential Center. "In 1981, the facility's name was changed to the Hayes Presidential Center to more accurately represent its mission and programming. The Hayes Presidential Center includes the home, library, museum, tomb, and 25-acre park-like estate (called Spiegel Grove) of 19th U.S. President Rutherford B. Hayes. Entrance to the property is through the original gates from the White House." Citation Link

I'm fine with the library itself being a separate article, if that is the goal... however the "Hayes Presidential Center" consists of more than just the library. At this point, the Hayes Presidential Center is at best a synonym for Spiegel Grove. -- PEPSI2786^talk 06:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, and you're winning me over. I was trying to use "Spiegel Grove" to refer to the house, but the name seems to refer to the whole estate. Not looking at the sources now, but maybe "White House" is an alternative name for the "Rutherford B. Hayes House" at Spiegel Grove? It looks like the three biggest conceptual terms (Spiegel Grove State Park, the NHL whose whole official name is "Spiegel Grove (Rutherford B. Hayes Summer Home)", and the Hayes Presidential Center) all refer to the whole 25 acre collection. Maybe because this was the very first presidential library, and it was created so long ago (well before the NHL program started in 1960), the NHL very clearly includes the library as part of the NHL. This is different than for the Nixon situation, where the NHL name is "Nixon Richard M. Nixon Birthplace" and it is clear the NHL is just the cottage, not the modern library and large visitors center that are all in the same property, a former lemon grove. So:

• I am okay with them being merged, though I would like to know if Clariosophic is also willing to change position on this or has other concerns;
• It would also be okay if someone wanted to really expand about the library and put that in a separate, linked article, especially if it would fit in with any series of articles about presidential libraries (i don't know if that exists or not), but i don't see any urgency for that;
• It would be okay, likewise, if someone wanted to really expand about the house a lot more than is appropriate in the main article and put that into a separate article on the house. The NRHP inventory/nomination document could be used as a source for a lot there. However, the NHL is the whole estate, so the NHL infobox should remain in the main article. The NRHP inv/nom doc can be a reference in the main article and in related ones. doncram (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick replies. Just a note that "White House" is not the name of the home at Spiegel Grove. As far as I am aware, the home doesn't have a name aside from the Rutherford B. Hayes Home at Spiegel Grove. It's a brick home, and isn't white. The note that I pasted above is referring to the gates from The White House in Washington DC that were used when he was President. They were given to his son Webb Hayes by a later president (I'm not sure which) for the Spiegel Grove estate when they were replaced at the White House. -- PEPSI2786^talk 23:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. For FDR at Hyde Park, New York there is the Home of Franklin D. Roosevelt National Historic Site plus the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum. Maybe that's what should be done here. Perhaps move the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center to a name indicating it as the library, etc. Then merge Spiegel Grove with what would then be a redirect. The new Presidential Center article would be the umbrella article with the Library being separate. My concern with just merging article like these two is that the NHL part tends to get diluted by the library-museum part which has a much narrower perspective. clariosophic (talk) 04:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

On the name of the house: The NPS external link has a picture with the caption of "Hayes (standing), in retirement at the age of 67, his wife, and Hon. William H. Smith, on the porch of Spiegel Grove. during the winter of 1888-89." That would seem to support my hunch that the house and estate bore the same name as was usual with Virginia and South Carolina stately houses. clariosophic (talk) 04:22, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, from the official website of the Hayes President Center Link, "The Rutherford B. Hayes Home is a 31-one room mansion and centerpiece of the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center... The most spectacular improvement was a four-story walnut and butternut staircase leading to a rooftop lantern offering a 360-degree view of Spiegel Grove (the Hayes estate)." The website very clearly states that the home is merely "The Rutherford B. Hayes Home" and the estate is known as Spiegel Grove.

But, on that point, I am not at all averse to your recommendation of using the Hayes Presidential Center article as an umbrella article, and having the home and library/museum as separate articles as well. I'm merely pointing out that Spiegel Grove is not the name of the home, it is the name of the estate. -- PEPSI2786^talk 08:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any consensus in favor of the merger proposal, or momentum for further discussion, so I am removing the "proposed merger" tags. If anyone believes I have misread the consensus here, please let me know. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Name change

The name was again changed in 2015 to the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Library and Museums, per website www.rbhayes.org/about-us/our-history/. The plural "Museums" refers to both the museum and the house. 173.90.65.191 (talk) 03:48, 25 September 2018 (UTC)