Talk:Sremska Mitrovica/Archive 1

Archive 1

Neutrality

Since Vojvodina have 6 official languages, the proper neutral manner to write alternate names of the city is to write alternate names in all 6 official languages of Vojvodina (Serbian: Сремска Митровица or Sremska Mitrovica, Rusin: Сремска Митровица, Croatian: Srijemska Mitrovica, Slovak: Sriemska Mitrovica, Hungarian: Szávaszentdemeter, Romanian: Sremska Mitrovita). The main dispute is about using Slovak and Romanian name. The dispute is also about Croatian name (the question is whether correct Croatian name for the city is Srijemska Mitrovica or Sremska Mitrovica). User:PANONIAN

Croatian name

The Croatian name Srijemska Mitrovica as opposed to Sremska Mitrovica can be attested at least as far back as 1936 when it was used in the one-volume encyclopedia Leksikon Minerva published in Zagreb (I can provide a scan of the relevant section on request). So it's obviously not a newly-minted word. --Elephantus 22:37, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

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Fine by me, but the user 82.208.206.74 claim that Croatian name for the city is Sremska Mitrovica. What is wrong to have both names in the article? User:PANONIAN

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I think that either the names in languages other than Serbian should be removed (that's what interwiki links are about) or the Croatian name should be spelled correctly (i.e. Srijemska Mitrovica). "Sremska" is plain wrong in Croatian. --Elephantus 13:49, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

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Nema potrebe da ovde isprobavate svoj engleski, kada dobro znate da se razumete i na maternjem jeziku. Pozdrav, Panonian. Ja govorim i engleski i tecan nemacki, ali cu ovde stvar o mom gradu, rascistiti na mom jeziku (ukoliko neko ipak ne razume, ili hoce englesku varijantu, jer smo ipak na engleskoj vikipediji, prevescu se bez problema). Dakle, obracam se Elephantusu. Prvo, razgovor na vasoj wikipediji sam pratio, jer je ucesnik bio moj drug, sa kojim sam zajedno bio upucen u sve to. Ja nisam, dakle, on, vec sam se potpisao kao Mitrovcanin dva, da bi se napravila razlika. Sve ostalo je isto, pa i ono da ne moze jedan covek da tvrdi da poznaje nesto sto je udaljeno od njega vise stotina kilometara, od onoga koji se nalazi na licu mesta. Ti ne znas kojim jezikom govore tvoji sunarodnici u mom gradu. To nije hrvatski jezik iz 1936., a bogami ni onaj posle 1991., a ponajmanje ovaj sto se danas cuje, pun evropeizama, anglicizama, poprilicno iskvaren i udaljen od svojih korena. Oni govore ekavicom, hrvatskosrpskim (srpskohrvatskim) jezikom. To je prirodan jezik. Naravno tu ne mislim na politicku, niti sluzbenu konotaciju posle 1945. , vec na realno stanje koje slusam svojim rodjenim usima. Ti ljudi govore Sremska Mitrovica. Vec sam vise puta naglasio da zivim u istom gradu sa njima, i znam kojim jezikom (i dijalektom) govore. I sto je najvaznije, zajednicki suzivot je nesto sto se ovde u pitomom Sremu itekako postuje. No, to nije tema ovde i sada... Ne mogu ti dozvoliti da se umesas u nesto oko cega su se dva Vojvodjanina i iskrena vikipedijanca (od kojih je jedan i stanovnik pomenutog grada) argumentovano i kompromisno slozila. Ako je vec pomenuti clanak zakljucan zbog one diskusije (a pre zbog neosnovanog cuvanja od osnovanog editovanja) na vasoj vikipediji, ja necu da dozvolim da ono ispolitizirano ime stoji i na internacionalnoj, engleskoj vikipediji. Tu se ti (bez ikakakve zelje da budem lican) najmanje pitas. Ono sto ti treba da razlucis sam sa sobom je kojim jezikom govoris, onim iz 1936., posle 1945, posle 1991, ili ovim najsvezijim, modernim hrvatskim. Jezikom Hrvata u Vojvodini sigurno ne i tu ne treba da dalje produbljujes svoju zabludu i uplices se gde ti nije mesto. Sto je rekao moj drug, svaka generacija kod vas valjda ima i svoju verziju jezika, a sve u zavisnosti koja je politika dominantna (nacionalisticka, internacionalisticka (socijalisticka), danas je to de facto jezik koji odgovara prozapadnoj orijentaciji, u cemu uistinu nema niceg loseg (mislim po politicki polozaj zemlje i drustveni standard), nikako jezik). U svakom slucaju, verzija po kojoj je ime grada ijekavizirano, je protivoprirodna i ne odgovara onom sto jeste de facto situacija u Sremskoj Mitrovici. Takav naziv (bez obzira na godinu njegovog nastanka, nema utemeljenost u jeziku Hrvata u Sremu i Mitrovici. Cak ni u Vojvodini sluzbeni, hrvatski jezik, ne cini takvav, rekao bih, 'protivprirodni blud' nad sopstvenom lingvistickom strukturom. Iako je cak ispostovan i dominantni, ijakavski karakter hrvatskog jezika (vestacki usvojen na vojvodjanskom cisto ekavskom podrucju, a iskljucivo iz administrativnih razloga uvodjenja hrvatskog kao sluzbenog j. u Vojvod.), ti si nacinio izmenu i vratio samo ijekavsku varijantu, iako je bez obzira na sve, ekavska varijanta apsolutna u hrvatskom (tacnije hrvatskosrpskom) jeziku medju Hrvatima u Sremu. Isto kao ijekavska u srpskom jeziku Srba u Osijeku.(to se u onim razgovorima mog druga na hr. vikipediji i u mojem sa Panonianom, vise puta pominjalo) Tamo, npr. treba, radi neutralnosti i realnosti dodati cirilicni (ali ijekavski) naziv ОСИЈЕК. Cisto iz vikipedijanske kulture i postovanja jedne nacionalne manjine u jednom gradu. (de facto, Srba u Osijeku). Prema tome sa ingerencijom koju mi daje dogovor sa Panonianom (cija je ovde editorska kompetencija daleko visa od tvoje, de facto o temi o kojoj govoris kao stanovnik druge drzave i nedovoljni poznavalac stvarne situacije u gradu koga vidis samo na karti, a ime mu slusas samo ponekad na TV-u). Tvoj jezik, dakle ne moze biti ispred jezika pripadnika hrvatske nacionalne manjine u Sremskoj Mitrovici. Pogotovo ne na odgovarajucem internacionalnom clanku vikipedije. Bez zelje za bilo kakvom daljom diskusijom sa tobom, vracam clanak u prvobitno stanje dogovoreno sa Panonianom. Mitrovcanin 2

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Croats who live in Vojvodina use Serbian in everyday life. What distinguishes them from the Serbs is not the language but religious affiliation (i.e. they are Catholics). The fact that they speak Serbian doesn't automatically make the Serbian langugage "Croatian". When they want to speak (and write) proper Croatian they switch to the correct form "Srijemska". Do a Google search "srijemska site:yu" and see for yourself. --Elephantus 13:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

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Rekoh da necu da nastavljamo diskusiju, jer tvoje ucesce i editovanje clanka jednostavno nije relevantno. Ipak par stvari ti necu ostati duzan: 1. Hrvati jesu katolici, ali to je samo jedna stvar po kojoj se razlikuju od Srba!! 2. Itekako govore hrvatskim jezikom, ali na maternjoj ekavici. (cak i da ne govore ekavicom, mesto u kome zive naziivaju kao i vecinski narod) 3. 'proper croatian', 'correct form' su najkontraverzniji moguci pojmovi (procitaj malo gore i zasto) koji se mogu upotrebiti da definises ispravno koriscenje jednog jezika kao sto je de facto (novo)hrvatski. Pa jel ti stvarno mislis da govoris ispravno? Ne sporim ja da se na internetu (na hrvatskim sajtovima, uglavnom usko povezanih sa religijom) pojavljuje ijekavizirana verzija imena grada. Ja samo sporim one koji su je skovali i koji je upotrebljavaju i plasiraju okolo (pa cak i na visevekovnom podrucju ekavskog dijalekta). Ti koji sa Sr. Mitrovicom, a ni sa Srbiama, niti Hrvatima u njoj nemaju nikakve veze i realne predstave. Idi ti sad na clanak Osijeka pa pisi srpsku, cirilicnu i ekavsku verziju imena. Srba tamo ima koliko i Hrvata u SM, ili ih je bar nekad bilo). Govore ijekavicom (posto se ekavica u Baranji, de facto ne govori). Koliko ta izmena zazivi toliko ce i ova tvoja. Eto, koliko si dug odgovor napisao, dobro si i prosao s moje strane...

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"Croatian" without further qualifiers means "standard Croatian" which doesn't include the word "Sremska". Using "proper" and "correct" is completely OK in this context. Also, I already said that names in languages other than Serbian are unnecessary and can be removed. But, if they are there, they should be correct. --Elephantus 20:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

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Ok, here is my opinion about this: Since Vojvodina have 6 official languages and Sremska Mitrovica is one of seven "district capitals" of Vojvodina, the name of the city should be written in all 6 official languages. The anonimous user agreed only to write alternate names in languages which are spoken in the city and Croatian is one of them. I do not agree with this and I think that Slovak and Romanian name should be also written, especialy because many Slovaks live in the Srem District, and Sremska Mitrovica is the capital of that District. However, if not all, at least some alternate names should to stand here. I hope that you two will find some agreement how to write Croatian name, because the constant reverting of the article is not a solution. Still, the article is not neutral, since the proper neutral manner to write alternate names is to write them in all official languages of Vojvodina. User:PANONIAN

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Numbers and clarification

I've commented this part, it's unclear:
"According to the 1910 census, the population of the city numbered 12,909 people, of which 4,878 spoke Serbian language, 3,915 Croatian, and 2,341 German. The municipal area of the city had 32,012 inhabitants, of which 27,022 spoke Serbian, 2,324 German, and 1,071 Croatian.".
In the city:
12,909 inhabitants, out of which 3,915 are Croats.
In municipal area of the city:
32,012 inhabitants, out of which 1,071 are Croats.
Something's wrong. In addidional 20,000 inhabitants, in the larger area that encompasses more, and includes the city, 2,900 Croats less, 2,900 vanished in statistics?
Please, re-check your literature. Kamarad Walter (talk) 08:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Municipal area does not include the city but only its rural surroundings. The two were administratively separated in 1910. PANONIAN 18:58, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Concentration camp svilara

Can you write an article about the town of Auschwitz (Oswiecim), without pointing to the holocaust in the concentration camp runned by the nazis? Have a look at Knićanin, where more than 10.000 cicilians were killed by the Yugoslav partisans (after the war)! So how can you ignore the concentration camp "Svilara" in Sremska mitrovica from 1945 to 1948, where so many German children, women, and older men were killed? Speidelj (talk) 22:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Did it really happen? I grew up in Yougoslavia, but I´ve never heard about svilara.--85.16.136.18 (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Most of the Germans in these camps died from starvation, coldness and illness. Anyway, the reliable source should be provided for number of 2,000 dead Germans (and reliable source that say that this camp existed as well). PANONIAN 19:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Liquidation Camp „Svilara“ (Silk Factory) at Syrmian Mitrovitz/Sremska Mitrovica

Conversion of the former silk spinning mill “Svilara” to a concentration camp for able-bodied and unfit to work ethnic Germans.

• Established: Beginning August 1945
• Number of Internees: average always exceeding 1,200 people.
• Duration of camp: beginning August 1945 to May 1947 (21 months).
• Casualties: about 2000 (1033 documented by name)
• Main causes of death: starvation, typhus and dysentery, freezing to death.

In April 1945, after the retreat of the German and Croatian military forces from the western frontier area of Syrmia additional Danube Swabians from Syrmia were added. The camp in the “Svilara” was established at the beginning of August1945 and was henceforth fully occupied by ethnic Germans from Batschka and Banat. At about the same time the partisans dissolved the central camp Kalvarienberg near Zemun. In contrast to the liquidation camps of the Batschka and Banat, the internees at he Svilara contained not only unfit to work but also mainly able-to-work Danube Swabians. Most were needed for work in the City itself, however, many also were conscripted to work on the farms and in the Vrdnik coal mine. The term “liquidation camp” is justified because, as evident from the personal experience reports, the inmates were supposed to be killed by whatever means. Children were separated from the women and housed in a different building situated 400 metre away from the main camp One day they were picked up by trucks. Nobody knows where they were taken. Camp food was bread of coarsely ground corn (150 gram) and “Einbrennsuppe”, a watery flour soup. The rations, however, were often not fully allocated. Starting the middle of November 1945 dysentery and typhus epidemics broke out in the camp. The daily mortality rate increased rapidly. Specifics: At the beginning of December 1945 72 women fit for work from Sekitsch (Batschka) were taken to the Svilara. By the end of March 1946, there were only twelve still alive. Of the 69 woman, who arrived on December 15th, 1945, from Betschmen (Banat), only eleven survived. 1033 casualties are recorded by name in volume IV of the documentary series “Leidensweg der Deutschen im kommunistischen Jugoslawien”.At the end of April 1947 the remaining unfit-to-work people were taken to Rudolfsgnad (Knicanin). The able-to-work Germans were sent to Sremski Jarak. --Speidelj (talk) 23:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Name on Croatian and Hungarian

In Sremska Mitrovica also lives a lot of Croats (5,44%) and Hungarians. In addition they have a city name in their language. So, I do not see why these variants should not stand in infobox. --IvanOS (talk) 18:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Infobox might use other names if they are officially used by municipal authorities, like in the case of Novi Sad, where Hungarian, Slovak and Rusyn language are officially used, together with Serbian. In Sremska Mitrovica, Croatian and Hungarian are not in official use. By the way, according to Serbian law, if one minority number more than 15% of population in municipality then language of that minority should be in official use. Also some municipalities are allowed to use minority language even if there are less than 15% members of minority, but in Sremska Mitrovica we neither have large minority populations with more than 15% members neither local authorities are using any minority language as official. In fact, even Serbian Latin script is not official in Sremska Mitrovica, but only Cyrillic. Check the maps: [1], [2], [3]. It is against Wiki practice that we use other names against official policies. PANONIAN 08:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

And by the way, perhaps you also want to revert this edit of one Croatian user who thinks that Serbian name should not be mentioned even under "Name" title of Vukovar article, not to mention infobox (and there are as much as 32,9% Serbs in Vukovar, a lot more than Croats in Sremska Mitrovica). PANONIAN 08:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

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