Talk:Ständchen (Schubert)

"Nächtliches Ständchen"

I too don't buy the attribution of "Nächtliches Ständchen" D.635 in free-scores.com to the religious painter who died in 1784. The text looks not only out of character, but also just wrong for that early a date. "Mond", "Sternlein", "Zephir" all shout Romanticism to me. A Google search for '"Anton Weiß" Dichter' turned up zilch. If the name is correct, I suspect that it was one of Schubert's acquaintances. Narky Blert (talk) 19:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Yech argh ptui

@Narky Blert: Aargh, it's horrendous: but with Schubert, what else would you expect but another messy conundrum?

I think we should start with my old mate Otto Deutsch, who says that the first edition (with the original words) was done by Eusebius Mandyczewski, "Zwei Unbekannten Compositionen von Franz Schubert". Die Musik, 1908-1909, Heft 7] (2nd quarter), Addendum, p. 4. (NB There is an article by Mandyczewski earlier on in the issue, haven't looked at it yet.)

But this talk page on IMLSP says: "D.635 - Quartet "Ruhe" ("Leise, leise lasst uns singen"). Published in 1900 by Ries & Erler (Berlin), and the MS in 1902 in Richard Heuberger's "Schubert", (Berlin, 1902), facing p.40." NB lots of good pics throughout.

The Ries & Erler edition (ed. Rudolf von Weis-Ostborn) is listed in the "Hofmeister Monatsberichte, November 1900", mentioning new words by Robert Graf [no info at all].

The MS is at Schubert-online.at: D 635 Leise, leise laßt uns singen. On the the other side of the single sheet are the melodies of (confusingly) D. 365 nos. 17, 28, 18 & 25 (various incorrect web hits for 635), and of 'Zwei Tänze', D980A.

The original words are:

  Leise, leise laßt uns singen,
  schlummre sanft, wer schlummern will;
  möcht es unserm Spiel gelingen,
  nur in ihren Traum zu klingen.
  Laßt uns rufen, aber still,
  laßt uns rufen, aber still:
  Fanny erwache,
  Fanny erwache.

Source: Franz Schubert: das fragmentarische Werk By Andrea Lindmayr, p. 173.

'Fanny' was Fanny von Hügel, a singer. This page has interesting speculations as to why there is only one verse.

The lieder.net words seem to be taken from this page, which has "Text: (3 Str. Anton Weiß vermutlich von Franz Schubert)" (ie 3 strophes possibly/probably/presumably by Schubert).

  Leise, leise laßt uns singen,
  still schon zieht der Mond die Bahn.
  Sternlein süßen Gruß dir bringen,
  mög' auch unser zu dir dringen;
  stimmet drum ein Liedchen an,
  stimmet drum ein Liedchen an:
  Holde, erwache, Holde, erwache.

 etc.

This may be the 1955 'Universal Edition': WorldCat has this: Nächtliches Ständchen : für Männerchor: "Responsibility: Franz Schubert; [words by] Anton Weiss."

Before starting this inquiry, my initial instinctive thoughts were that the Weiß words may possibly have been written for this particular edition: and this next slightly reinforces my gut feeling:

The Cambridge Companion to Schubert pp. 287n9, and 322n41, lists Fünfzig Jahre Schubertbund (Vienna 1913) by one Anton Weiß. Also mentions some factionalism involving the Schubertbund. The cover is here, but GB is snippet view only - hmm, don't be evil etc.

But why, then, does the UE edition with the Weiß words claim they are "perhaps/presumably by FS?". The mystery deepens, as usual. Maybe someone is dissimulating, or perhaps it's just the ghost of Anton Schindler rattling the windows, or maybe Anton Weiß = Alan Smithee... Hmm, I seem to have drafted Nächtliches Ständchen, D. 635 already. [Exits hurriedly, leaving small prophet-shaped hole in the unopened door] MinorProphet (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• FYI, I just updated List of compositions by Franz Schubert#D 635 with a link to the 1906–1907 (not 1908-1909!) addendum p. 4 of Die Musik issue 7. The author of the text of that version (one stanza), which is the complete text in Schubert's autograph, is unknown. Possibly the text was by Schubert himself, according to speculations by, among others, Mandyczewski ("... der Text dürfte auch von Schubert herrühren"). All other text versions (multiple stanzas, none of them with the exact words as in Schubert's autograph, etc) are by other authors. These variant text versions have nothing, as in *nothing at all*, to do with Schubert. Robert Graf's text version, published in 1900, was written for that edition, many years after the composer's death. I have no clue who Anton Weiß is, the claimed author of yet another text version (who nonetheless seems to have recuperated, as 3rd stanza, i.e. "3. Str." = dritte Strophe = third stanza, not "3 Str." = "drei Strophen" = "three stanzas", a variant (!) of the text from the composer's autograph). de:Anton Weiß seems unlikely. LiederNet's page on Anton Weiß is completely uninformative on who it may have been. IMSLP editor's opinions on such matters are notoriously unreliable, etc.

The modest (Mandyczewski: "...bescheiden...") composition is, afaik, rather at the outskirts of Schubert's oeuvre (Mandyczewski: "... bietet mehr persönliches als sächliches Interesse"). Various attempts to "upgrade" it with variant longer text versions, which also removed the "personal" touch (removing the name "Fanny"), have, afaik, not placed it more central in the composer's oeuvre. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:04, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Francis, for confirming my suspicions (and for 1908→1906.) The idea that the lyrics were too dirty to set down in Biedermeier's Vienna is quite possibly close to the the truth. See de:Ludlamshöhle (NB to self: to be translated/expanded aargh), a musical and literary men's drinking club raided by the secret police, when various "manuscripts" (ahem) were confiscated - many members were at Beethoven's funeral, which shall be my next (and possibly biggest) article. Also, onwards and upwards "zum ew'gen gipfel", nicht wahr? MinorProphet (talk) 08:15, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

What a nonsense. There's nothing "dirty", no double-entendre whatsoever, in the text version set to music by Schubert. In German "Fanny" is just the name of a girl, presumably a girl known by Schubert (which is what makes the text more interesting from a personal life story angle, than for its intrinsic qualities).

I'm proposing to make this article a redirect to the Ständchen DAB page: the current article text is riddled with Wikipedia editor's viewpoints *not based on reliable sources* (e.g. the first explanatory note: that is not what dictionaries say, etc., etc.). If someone wants to clean it up, OK, but until then it is far less disgraceful as a redirect than as an accumulation of unsubstantiated viewpoints by Wikipedia editors. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: I haven't properly woken up yet, and plan to post something considered when I have done so. Meanwhile, (1) I have commented out the editorial gloss in the second half of footnote 1. (2) Before turning this into a redirect, don't overlook WP:INTDAB. There are getting on for 50 incoming links – and IIRC, some of them are near-insoluble problems unless this page is a WP:SIA. Narky Blert (talk) 11:34, 16 September 2017 (UTC).

Francis, exactly which parts of the main article text are you disputing? I am more than ready to make any changes. In my post above I meant confirming my suspicions that the 3-verse editions had nothing to do with Schubert. I have removed an uncylopedic note in the lede and hopefully improved the notes about D.635 based on this discussion. I have absolutely no axe to grind, no point of view to promote, and I have added a number of entries to the page with what I feel are accurate references.

The discussion on the talk page is meant to improve the article, and I do not see much evidence of personal bias in the main text at all. Please point out exactly what you are unhappy with. As to "dirty", the single verse which Schubert set is entirely wholesome: but I quote from the page I mentioned above: "Interestingly, the song has a repeat sign at its end that usually indicates a strophic song, however no additional verses have been preserved. This has led more than one scholar to speculate that the additional verses might have been thought too lascivious too bear printing in Schubert's repressive Vienna."

Do you know anything about this? MinorProphet (talk) 12:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

On the topic of whether AllMusic can be used as a source, see a recently archived discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 231#AllMusic. My stance in that discussion: "IMHO AllMusic should be approached on a case-by-case basis ... (etc)". In this case I wouldn't use AllMusic's "This has led more than one scholar to speculate that the additional verses might have been thought too lascivious too bear printing in Schubert's repressive Vienna" (emphasis added) as a source directly. Let's find the "more than one scholar" and use these, unless too "speculative". (not completely convinced yet by the material offered below in #More on MSS & copies of D. 635, seems all a bit far-fetched). Regarding "the song has a repeat sign at its end that usually indicates a strophic song": this is covered, in German, in the 1978 Deutsch catalogue too, so no problem to reference this to the German scholarly work, and its approximate English translation at AllMusic. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

More on MSS & copies of D. 635

@Francis Schonken: that's a huge improvement, it's much more concise, informative and better laid out, thank you.

I went hunting, and found this article which contains some interesting info about D.635 and the editor of the Ries & Erler 1900 edition and how it came about. I came across Suppan's writing some time ago in connection with Eduard Lannoy in Steiermark, he is very meticulous and clear.

• Suppan, W. (1964). "Schubert-Autographe im Nachlass Weis-Ostborn, Graz". Studia Musicologica Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae (in German). 6, (1/2): 131–141. doi:10.2307/901337. JSTOR 901337. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) (subscription needed)

"Rudolf Weis-Ostborn, geboren am 8. November bei Friedrich von Hausegger und Erich Wolf 1913 die Musikschule in Knittelfeld/Steiermark, Direktor der Philharmonischen Gesellschaft 1920 bis 1956 als Domchordirektor in Graz. In seinem Besitz befanden sich eine Locke aus Beethovens Haar, von A. Hittenbrenner am Sterbebett des Meisters entfernt, und Briefe Richard Wagners an seinen Vater Hans Weis-Ostborn, den Begründer der ersten Grazer Richard Wagner-Gesellschaft. - Vgl. über ihn W. Suppan in: Mitteilungen des Steirischen Tonkünstlerbundes, Graz 1960, Nr. 1, 1-4." (page 133)

"Rudolf Weis-Ostborn,[...] composer and Kapellmeister of Graz cathedral, director of the Philharmonic Society from 1920 to 1956. He was a great-nephew of Anselm and Josef Hüttenbrenner. In his possession was the lock of hair which A. Hüttenbrenner removed from Beethoven's death-bed, and letters from Wagner to his father Hans Weis-Ostborn, who founded the Graz Wagner Society."

The next page has a crossed-out copy of an arrangement by Schubert of 'Leise, Leise' formerly in the possession of Rudolf Weis-Ostborn in 1900, which - it appears - was the basis of the 1900 Ries & Erler edition with the Robert Graf words.

"This catalogue [of Schubert MSS and copies in RW-O's possession, many now lost] had been held back for obvious reasons by R. Weis-Ostborn, the son of the aforementioned Hans Weis-Ostborn, for the publishers of Schubert's manuscripts, handed over to Ries & Erler in Berlin, Ostborn, but the promise [to print some of Weis-Ostborn's own works, along with previously unknown Schubert works] (given by H. Erler by letter of July 11, 1900) was never observed: R. Weis-Ostborn's works did not appear in print, but he was only responsible for the publication of the Schubert quartett Leise, Leise. On the contrary, the autograph of the quartet Leise, Leise was purchased at auction at Liepmannsohn's in Berlin in June 1901, D 635, with the Landlerskizzen on the back. [...]

"The following distribution was found in Weis-Ostborn's family ownership up to 1900: Autographs of D 635, 53, 58, 60 and 471 or 581. As to the Schubert manuscripts D 54, 679 and App / 3, R. Weis-Ostborn, whom I had interviewed before his death, could not recall: contrary to OE Deutsch, there are two fragments of the A-major Mass, D 678, still in the folder available to me (the two pages described on both sides will be reproduced in the context of this contribution."

"If we continue in R. Weis-Ostborn's Schubert portfolio, we see contemporary copies of the following Schubert works: [...] D 635, Ruhe, Stimmen; D 748, On the Birthdays of the Emperor, for piano, by J. Hittenbrenner. D 635 bears the note "copied from the original", but this is probably the case for all the manuscripts here, which is why they are important as secondary sources for Schubert research." MinorProphet (talk) 16:13, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Anton Weiß

I think it will be best not to suggest who he might have been, just as the current version of the page does not. That early version of "Nächtliches Ständchen", with its topical mention of Fanny, very much looks as if he was one of Schubert's circle, who is probably unidentifiable.

I found out a tiny bit more about Fanny Hügel – she was single. I failed to find out if she was entitled to the "von" some sources give her. Narky Blert (talk) 20:50, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Weiß's text version does not contain the name "Fanny" (see above), so yes, this seems again like a Wikipedian veering off in OR. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:20, 17 September 2017 (UTC)