Talk:St. Bonaventure Brown Indians football

Bonnies vs. Brown Indians

Here is some raw data on use of the nicknames "Bonnies" vs. "Brown Indians" during the years in which St. Bonaventure fielded a football team. The data is drawn from Newspapers.com. The searches were limited to the State of New York in order to avoid erroneous inclusion of schools in other states known as St. Bonaventure. The bold number highlights the most commonly used nickname in a particular year.

Year	Bonaventure "Bonnies"	Bonaventure "Brown Indians"	Bonaventure "Brown and White"
1919	1	0	7
1920	3	1	23
1921	5	0	29
1922	10	1	71
1923	6	0	66
1924	4	1	69
1925	2	0	52
1926	6	3	51
1927	14	18	63
1928	34	8	98
1929	31	8	72
1930	49	6	90
1931	74	8	93
1932	25	4	8
1933	59	52	12
1934	36	37	20
1935	91	45	17
1936	89	32	42
1937	73	43	28
1938	88	21	17
1939	42	3	3
1940	53	11	13
1941	93	23	23
1942	72	48	33
1946	88	25	18
1947	81	26	19
1948	166	39	20
1949	170	40	33
1950	339	96	35
1951	255	41	6
1968	421	119	6
1969	229	60	6
1970	552	49	15

Cbl62 (talk) 17:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposal

Based on the data, it appears that "Brown Indians" was never the WP:COMMONNAME for the St. Bonaventure football teams. To the contrary, the data shows that the common name was "Brown and White" until about 1931 and that the common name then shifted to "Bonnies" from 1932 forward. Accordingly, I propose changing the name of this article to "St. Bonaventure Bonnies football" and changing the links at Template:St. Bonaventure Bonnies football navbox. Cbl62 (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Pinging various editors who have been active in this space to participate in this discussion. @Ejgreen77: @Murphanian777: @Jweiss11: @JMyrleFuller: @Kithira: Cbl62 (talk) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Very impressive, how long did it take you to compile that information? Also, I agree with the change to Bonnies, given your data and the fact that it seems St. Bonaventure's other modern athletic teams go by Bonnies as well. Murphanian777 (talk) 18:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)Murphanian777

"Bonnies" was never an official name until 1992 (long after the football team was gone) so I would be wary of changing it to something unofficial and arguably an anachronism. I do not object to a name change but I would advise changing the respective articles and templates to to "St. Bonaventure University football" instead if a rename is to be made. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 19:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Our naming practices do not follow what the school considers official. Rather, per WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used." Under this guideline, "Brown and White" is the common name for the early years and "Bonnies" for the later years. Cbl62 (talk) 19:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

As someone who lives in the geographical area and has a great deal of familiarity with the school in question, I can tell you that "Brown Indians" was definitely the team name prior to 1992, when it was changed to "Bonnies" as part of the controversy over the use of Native American names and symbols. See stuff like this, this, this, and this. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure what newspapers were included in your search, but in terms of St Bonaventure, the only two newspapers that would really be producing significant St. Bona-related content would be The Buffalo News and the Olean Times Herald. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Anyways I feel very strongly that using "Bonnies" for anything prior to 1992 would be a major historical anachronism for St. Bonaventure. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ejgreen77: Yes, the Olean Times Herald is part of the Newspapers.com database. For the period 1946-1951 (the years for which I created season articles), the Olean paper uses "Bonnies" with far greater frequency than "Brown Indians" -- by a factor of about three-to-one. See here vs here. Examples of usage include this, this, this, this, and hundreds more. Given the usage, I am not sure how you can say "Bonnies" is an anachronism. 01:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Usage in the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle during the years 1946-1951 also favors "Bonnies" over "Brown Indians" by an overwhelming factor of more than 10-to-1. Compare here (31 hits for Brown Indians) and here (584 hits for Bonnies). Examples from that paper include this, this, this. Cbl62 (talk) 02:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ejgreen77: As for the early years, do you agree based on the data that "Brown and White" is the correct nickname for sports teams prior to 1932. For the years prior to 1932, the data favors "Brown and White" by a factor of 10-to-1. Cbl62 (talk) 02:04, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I've always heard that the Brown Indians name was introduced in 1927 (the school is located about 20 miles away from the Allegany Indian Reservation), but, based on your research, it appears like it may not have fully taken hold until several decades afterward. Obviously, the 1940's is well before my time, so I can't speak to that directly, but I do know that when the St. Bona basketball team went to the Final Four in 1970, the team name was definitely Brown Indians then (Bob Lanier has always referred to himself as a "Brown Indian"), and I remember the controversy in 1992 when the Franciscans dropped the Brown Indians name. St Bonaventure really isn't in the Rochester media market, so I wouldn't put too muck stock in what their papers say. Like I said, the main papers of record for St. Bonaventure would be the the Olean Times Herald, The Buffalo News, and possibly the old Buffalo Courier-Express as well. Ejgreen77 (talk) 19:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Not finding the Buffalo papers, but the Olean Times Herald is available from the 1910s through the 1950s. Results from the Olean paper (summarized below) show a gradual transition away from "Brown and White" in the 1930s with "Bonnies" developing as the more popular nickname, though "Brown Indians" was also used.

Decade	Bonaventure "Bonnies"	Bonaventure "Brown Indians"	Bonaventure "Brown and White"
1910s	0	0	42
1920s	11	29	364
1930s	193	110	234
1940s	134	106	91
1950s	112	43	14

As a compromise solution, J. Myrle Fuller suggested above using the more generic "St. Bonaventure University football". The main article could then have a brief discussion of the different nicknames used over time. Is that acceptable to you? Cbl62 (talk) 21:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, we should probably be following what the sources say; if Bonnies was indeed the name back then we should be using it. The Times Herald is the closest paper geographically to St. Bona, anyways, and your data compilation from it looks pretty definitive. Like I said, I know the name was definitely Brown Indians back in the 1960's-80's, but as the football program was long gone by then, that's not really germane to this discussion, though determining exactly when those name switches took place is something the college basketball project will have to work out somewhere down the line. So, I say go ahead and use Brown and White for the 1930's and before, and use Bonnies for stuff in the 1940's. Ejgreen77 (talk) 08:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)