Talk:St. Edward's Catholic Church/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: CaroleHenson (talk · contribs) 03:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I am looking forward to performing a review of this article. My approach is to review each section, make minor edits as I go along (links, punctuation, etc.) to save us both time and effort, and then assess the article against GA criteria. Feel free to revert edits that I make if you disagree.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

General comments

• The article is a bit short for a good article. It will be interesting to see if there is additional content that may be added to round out the article. For instance, there is very little information about the ways that the church operated with its membership and the community.
• It would also be helpful to break out the stages of the life of the church into sections, such as

• Construction and electricity
• Early church history
• Early 20th century remodeling
• Fire of 1971
• Reconstruction
• Church activity
• Mother Cabrini Catholic Church

These sections make sense in terms of the content that is already in the article... and where to provide more information. How does that sound?

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:01, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Are you interested in expanding the article?–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:49, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Working --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Excellent, Doug Coldwell, thanks so much! Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help... Or, when you are ready for me to take a look.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Introduction

• The information that is in the introduction is good, but it seems to mostly focus on the construction and electricity.

 Working --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• There seems to be a discrepancy between the introduction and the second paragraph of the history section about whether or not it was "the first church in the world to use electric lighting."

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• After the article is expanded, there will be more information to summarize.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

History

• Construction and history content appears to come from the first and second paragraph.

 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:01, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Is there any information about its architectural style, any stained glass windows, etc? This ex. source mentions artwork and stained glass from Germany.
• Was the church part of the Diocese of Harrisburg by 1872? If so, it would be nice to have that with the initial sentence about the pastor. This existing source[1] has a bit of background information.
• Regarding Early church history, it would be nice to have information about its activities, etc. There is some in one of the existing sources on this page
• It looks like the third paragraph would be great for an Early 20th century remodeling section.

 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:01, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• The fourth paragraph has the content for Fire of 1971. Some of that information is a bit too detailed for an encyclopedia. It would be best to summarize and/or put some of the detail into notes.

This section was created.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:01, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• It would be great to have content about Church activity from the reconstruction.
• The last two sentences would go in the Mother Cabrini Catholic Church section. It would be good to have more information about the consolidation.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• @CaroleHenson: - All issues have been addressed. Can you take a look at it now. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Perfect timing, Doug Coldwell. I was just trying to sort out what to do next. You've been hard at work. Thanks so much! Sure, I will look at it now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Expanded article

First of all, you've done a great job expanding the article. I have some suggestions for rewording, which I think of as polishing. Just the final step in a lot of work.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Introduction

Just as a couple of ideas to tighten up the verbiage, how about:

• St. Edward's Catholic Church, located in Shamokin, Pennsylvania, was constructed in the late nineteenth century.
• Its congregation grew out of earlier Shamokin churches and served the men that worked on the Danville and Pottsville Railroad.

I see that these two are  Done. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• I may come back to this section with ideas to expand the intro.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:08, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
• I added a summary of Early church history to the introduction here. See what you think. Feel free to edit as you wish.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• I added a summary of the Construction and electricity section (the construction part) here and that it was the 3rd building in the world to have electricity here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• I added a sentence summarizing the Remodeling sectionhere.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:33, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• I added a sentence about the parochial school here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Early church history

• I reordered the information in this section to flow chronologically.
• And edited what is now the fist sentence to A need for a Catholic church began with Danville and Pottsville Railroad workers.
• Perhaps the second sentence, "Many of those of the Catholic faith were employed in the building of the railroad." could be combined into the first sentence, like "A need for a Catholic church began with Danville and Pottsville Railroad workers , many of whom were of the Catholic faith.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:25, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps the third and fourth sentence could be edited to something like Preachers from Pottsville and Minersville, Pennsylvania led church services in the village of Shamokin beginning in 1838.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Do you know where the "plot of land" was for the first church?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I just saw it was "on the west end of the village" per {{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}}. Please note, this book, written in 1911 is in the public domain. And, later on the same page, the early church was demolished to make room for the new church, so it sounds like they were on the same site, right?–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:47, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done - noted behind publisher. Is that what you had in mind? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't very clear. I just meant that you don't have to worry about paraphrasing the content from 1911, it's copyright expired.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps "Father J.J. Koch in September of 1866 transferred from St. Joseph's church in Milton, Pennsylvania. He was given the position of being in charge of the congregation at Shamokin and was appointed the first official resident pastor.[1]" could be reworded to Father J.J. Koch, who had served St. Joseph's church in Milton, Pennsylvania, was transferred in September of 1866 to Shamokin, where he was appointed the first official resident pastor.[1]

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Are the changes that I am suggesting or made in synch with the info from the sources? Is the diocese sentence in the right place?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I made a few minor edits and added links to this section. here and here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Construction and electricity

• Perhaps the first sentence could be reworded to something like Having planned for a new church for some time, Reverend Koch led the groundbreaking for a new church in September 1872.

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:06, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• I made a minor edit here to the second paragraph.

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• I am not quite understanding "three lights in series" in "The Roselle Park electrical system was wired with three lights in series on each circuit of 330 volts." Could it be reworded a bit for clarity?

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:11, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• What do you think of tweaking the wording of "which turned out to be the adopted system used throughout" to something like which was then adopted throughout–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:48, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I moved some of the information from the Early church section into this section here and made some minor edits here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

20th century remodeling

• Perhaps "The church interior was remodeled during 1906 and 1907. Decorations by the Italian artist Baraldi were used and stained glass windows added." could be reworded to something like In 1906, the church interior was remodeled to include stained glass windows and decorations by the Italian artist Baraldi.?

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Do you have citations for the first paragraph?

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Do you know why the steeple was lowered by 100 feet?

 Done - No. The news clip reference says only Original tower of the big church rose to an imposing height, and the top of the steeple was the highest point of any structure in the Shamokin area. The tower was reduced by 100 feel in 1932. In 1938, new altars, communion railing and wainscoting of white Carrara marble were installed ... --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I guessed as much, but thought I would ask.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps "In 1938 additional remodeling was done to the church. The church basement was converted into a social hall at that time." could be phrased as The church basement was converted into a social hall and additional interior remodeling was conducted in 1938.

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps "An extensive remodeling project was done in 1968 and 1969. Exterior work was done to repair the stone walls and mortar joints. Additional remodeling of the church interior was also done then." could be reworded to An extensive remodeling project of 1968 and 1969 resulted in repairs to exterior stone walls and mortar joints and remodeling of the interior.?

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• I changed a link to a wikilink. Is that ok by you?

 Done - perfect. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:55, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• And reworded one sentence and added links here

 Done - perfect. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• For Ruebens, do you mean Peter Paul Rubens?–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done Yup! Changed "crucifixion of Jesus" to the actual Wikipedia article on the painting. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:08, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

This section is looking good.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Fire of 1971

There is a bit of information that gets into more detail than is appropriate for an encyclopedia article.

• What do you think of rephrasing "Only the stone walls remained of the church. The chimneys of the church spread the fire rapidly to the roof. When the steeple toppled it took out electric and telephone lines. Several hundred residents were without service for some time. The fire was so much out of control that the 200 volunteer firemen concentrated on just saving nearby structures." to something like: The fire, so fierce that it required 200 volunteer fiement to fight the fire and save nearby structures, took down the church so that all that remained were the stone walls.

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• This sentences is not needed: "There were hundreds of spectators of the church fire, many of them parishioners."

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps "at that time" could be added to "The church had a membership of 2,500.[3]"

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! I made a couple of minor edits here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:49, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Reconstruction

• This sentence is not needed: "There had been extensive renovations done to the old church in 1969."

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• It may be that the fire and reconstruction sections could be merged... and a separate section for Mother Cabrini Catholic Church.

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I think that looks good. I will try to find more information about the church's activities and its consolidation / renaming as Mother Cabrini Catholic Church.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

General comments

I think this article does a great job of managing the content for it's construction, remodeling, and reconstruction. It would be nice to have some information about the church's activities - for instance, I think the church ran a school.

 Working --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I am happy to do some research for that.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

As examples, the most recent churches/cathedrals I have reviewed for good article status are St John the Baptist Church, Reid and Lund Cathedral.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:17, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Additional information for consideration

• A parish was established in Shamokin in August 1866, with Father Koch appointed as its first pastor in September 1866.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}}<ref name=NewsItem04_08_1971 />

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Construction on a second, larger St. Edward's church building was completed by Thanksgiving 1866. The congregation soon outgrew the building and in 1867 the building was enlarged. A parochial house was built on an adjoining lot in the spring of 1869.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}}

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:03, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• < info about building the new church - ground breaking, etc. > The roof was completed in 1873{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}} or 1875.<ref name=NewsItem04_08_1971 /> The first mass was held in the basement on Christmas and church services were held there until the entire building was completed.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}} The plastering and interior woodworking was completed in 1879.<ref name=NewsItem04_08_1971 /> The church was dedicated on June 6, 1880.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}}

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:03, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• The church tower, with four large bells weighing 8,500 pounds, was 207 feet (63 m) tall. A well-known artist from Philadelphia created the interior frescoes. Works of art included life-size paintings of St. Edward, the patron of the church, St. Patrick, and The Crucifixion that were hung over the main altar. The twelve Apostles are painted on the walls. A depiction of the Resurrection of Christ, surrounded by the four Evangelists, is found in a 22 feet (6.7 m) fresco on the ceiling. Father Kock imported two statues from France that sit on either side of the altar. They are Christ meeting His Mother on His Way to Calvary and the Descent from the Cross.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=719}} The church holds up to 1,400 people.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=720}}

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:50, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I see, and did some editing of the placement, of this information (from the above four bullets) to the Early church history and Construction and electricity sections.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Father Koch organized a parochial school in 1874, which operated out of the 1866 church building. Initially, lay teachers taught the students. The Sisters of Charity from Mount St. Vincent, New York assumed supervision of the church in 1875, with four nuns placed at St. Edwards. A convent was built for them in 1877. A brick schoolhouse was completed in 1884 on a lot opposite the church. By 1911, there were more than 700 students who were taught by 14 Sisters of Charity.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=720}}

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

This is in a new section - Parochial school.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Father Koch was the vicar general of the Diocese of Harrisburg for 23 years. He was appointed administrator of the dioceses in 1898.{{sfn|Whipporwill|1911|p=720}}

 Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:09, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

This information (without a great home) is a note.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• < insert after "a church in Roselle, New Jersey,"[13] >... making it the third public building in the world to operate on electricity.<ref name=NewsItem04_08_1971 />

I added this to the Construction and electricity section. Revert it if you do not agree.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

This was reverted after tagged and discussed on the talk page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• In 1938, Carrara marble was installed for wainscoting, a communion railing, and altar.<ref name=NewsItem04_08_1971 />

I added this to the Remodeling section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps a bit more detail about the 1968 and 1969 renovations... after which it was rededicated in 1969.<ref name=NewsItem04_08_1971 />

I added that 1969 rededication part to the 20th century remodeling section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Doug Coldwell You have made a lot of progress and the article is filling in nicely. I haven't finished doing research for the churches activities... but I really like having some of the architectural elements in the article.

Are you happy with the new info? Would you prefer if I just add anything new directly to the article and provide diffs for you of the changes? Whatever works the best for you.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson: = yes, happy with new info. You are a very good editor. YES = just add anything new directly to the article and provide diffs for you of the changes. Thanks a bunch. I'm going for lunch. I'm a poet and don't know it.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

You're funny, Doug Coldwell! Okay, will do.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:21, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

There are so many items now, I will make my comments in purple.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:26, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson: Happy with all the changes and improvements you have made. I can't see anything more I should do. If I missed something, please point it out and I will correct. All done as far as I am concerned. Article has come out real nice = looks like a Good Article to me. What do you think? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Doug Coldwell, Yes, it's looking good. I agree! I am going to do just a little more research, but that's it.

If you could look at the second bullet under GA criteria § comment, that would be great!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC) Oh, you did, Doug Coldwell. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): } b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Comments

• The article complies with MOS guidelines. There are some editing suggestions to make the verbiage a little crisper. (1a, 1b)
• The article is generally cited with reliable sources; The last citation to "Place Beam" I was going to check out but the site no longer exists. Is it possible to get an archived page, or another source? (2a, 2b)

 Done - It was a reference for the first church with electricity. There are already several refs that cover that. So dropped Place Beam as it is no longer needed. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:37, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• There is no evidence of original research or copyvio issues. (2c, 2d)
• Additional content about the nature of the churches activities would be helpful. There is a suggestion to tighten up the language about the fire. Otherwise, the article covers the major topics and is focused. (3a, 3b)
• The article is neutral and stable. (4, 5)
• The image is properly tagged and relevant to the article. (6a, 6b)–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Doug Coldwell, I added a bit of information and then read through the article for copy edits. this is a diff of all my comments after I said that I was going to do a bit more work. Do you want to read through the article and/or my edits to ensure that the article looks good to you? Then, I am ready to pass it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:10, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson: Great. It all looks excellent to me. Thanks for help. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, great! It was my pleasure. Thanks for all the effort that you put into it. I am passing the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)