Talk:St. Mary Church (Lansing)

WP:GNG passing references

Hello Dgtlcraft. Thanks for your work on this article, it's looking really good. Do any of your book or newspaper references have at least two meaty paragraphs talking about this specific church? If so, can you mention them here and I'll take a look. Ideally we need around 3 to pass WP:GNG, which is our guideline for what drafts can be promoted to full articles. Thank you. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Novem Linguae. Thanks for the help, I'm new to editing, but doing my best to satisfy the requirements. Michalek 1987 has the most information (at least 3 full pages, 115-117), but I'm having a difficult time tracking down a physical copy (the Michigan Library is closed to the public due to the pandemic). It is a copyrighted work, so I don't know what I can/can't post in the Talk section. I've been able to read most of those 3 pages via Google Books snippets, and I corroborated/supplemented everything I found in there with the additional references from the newspaper (I added complete quotes of those to the references section and footnotes where I found conflicting information).

I hope that this is sufficient (some of these searches return parts of other pages, but only pages 115-117 are relevant):

Michalek 1987 https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015071424363

https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=window+frames https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=deepening+involvement https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%221872+a+school%22 https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22found+in+a+cellar%22 https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22refused+to+accept%22 https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Slattery https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Brancheau https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=old+church+razed https://books.google.com/books?id=KN3hAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=group+of

–Dgtlcraft (talk) 20:21, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

A second reference is the National Register of Historic Places. Although that is for dedicating the Cathedral as a Historic Place, page 8 contains several paragraphs that about the original church:

St. Mary Cathedral. National Park Service National Register of Historic Places. United States Department of the Interior. October 1, 1990. https://www.lansingmi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/7502/MI_Ingham_St-Mary-Cathedral-PDF

–Dgtlcraft (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Dgtlcraft, thanks for the info and your research. Sounds like the book qualifies for WP:GNG, so that's source 1 of 3. The national register of historic places probably doesn't qualify for GNG, as the submitter probably wrote that text, so it's not independent. You mention some newspaper articles, do they have a couple of paragraphs talking about the old church? Feel free to provide links. If we can get 3 sources that meet the GNG standard, I'll promote the draft myself. If not, I'll leave it in the queue and let another reviewer give a second opinion. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:27, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Novem Linguae, I certainly appreciate the encouragement. I placed the excerpts directly into each newspaper reference using the quote field and linked to clipped images. The 1895 news article 'Set HIM Out' is supposed to be substantial (but only available on microfilm from the Michigan Library), as well as 'City in the Forest', which was referenced in several other places: https://books.google.com/books?id=qHN5AAAAMAAJ I believe those two sources will qualify, and I will continue trying to obtain them (could take a week or so). –Dgtlcraft (talk) 22:59, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Novem Linguae, I found one! City in the Forest - The Story of Lansing, pages 206-207: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015058019434&view=1up&seq=238 –Dgtlcraft (talk) 23:24, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Novem Linguae - I found another book (again, via the Michigan Library) that contains a detailed history of this church, but it is not available online due to copyright. However, I was able to put together some highly specific searches via the Hathi Trust (which has the book in digital form) that shows that the book devotes at least 8 full pages to the original church (pp4-11 and pp36,46), including the incident with Father Slattery:

St. Mary Cathedral (1980)
https://www.worldcat.org/title/saint-mary-cathedral/oclc/7968310

Saier (p4)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=saier&id=mdp.39015071403409&view=1up&seq=1
Father Krutil (p4, p46)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=krutil&id=mdp.39015071403409&view=1up&seq=1
Chestnut Street (pp4-11, 38)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=chestnut;id=mdp.39015071403409;view=1up;seq=1;start=1;sz=10;page=search;orient=0
Van Driss (pp5-9, 46)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=%22van+driss%22&id=mdp.39015071403409&view=1up&seq=1
Father Slattery (pp8-10, p46)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=slattery&id=mdp.39015071403409&view=1up&seq=1
Please let me know if this is sufficient.
–Dgtlcraft (talk) 15:16, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

For my own reference, these are the resources I'm trying to obtain from the Michigan Library:
"Set HIM Out". Lansing Journal, Friday, December 20, 1895. Lansing, Michigan.
http://35.8.7.98/search~S37?/XLansing+Journal&searchscope=37&SORT=D/XLansing+Journal&searchscope=37&SORT=D&fpSubmit=&SUBKEY=Lansing+Journal/1%2C217%2C217%2CB/frameset&FF=XLansing+Journal&searchscope=37&SORT=D&2%2C2%2C or at Michigan History Center:
http://35.8.7.98/search~S37?/XLansing+Journal&searchscope=37&SORT=D/XLansing+Journal&searchscope=37&SORT=D&fpSubmit=&SUBKEY=Lansing+Journal/1%2C217%2C217%2CB/frameset&FF=XLansing+Journal&searchscope=37&SORT=D&3%2C3%2C
St. Mary Cathedral (1980)
http://35.8.7.98/search~S37?/XSt+Mary+Cathedral&searchscope=37&SORT=DZ/XSt+Mary+Cathedral&searchscope=37&SORT=DZ&extended=0&SUBKEY=St+Mary+Cathedral/1%2C10%2C10%2CB/frameset&FF=XSt+Mary+Cathedral&searchscope=37&SORT=DZ&2%2C2%2C
Golden Jubilee: Diocese of Lansing, parish historical sketches (1987)
http://35.8.7.98/search~S37?/XGolden+Jubilee&searchscope=37&SORT=DZ/XGolden+Jubilee&searchscope=37&SORT=DZ&extended=0&SUBKEY=Golden+Jubilee/1%2C110%2C110%2CB/frameset&FF=XGolden+Jubilee&searchscope=37&SORT=DZ&3%2C3%2C
–Dgtlcraft (talk) 15:56, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Novem Linguae - Durant (1880) devotes several paragraphs to the church (see page 177, "Catholic. St. Mary's").
To sum up my earlier posts, I believe the following satisfy the notability requirements:
Durant (1880). History of Ingham and Eaton counties, Michigan. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t3805dm9c&view=1up&seq=209
Darling (1950). City in the Forest. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015058019434&view=1up&seq=238
Michalek (1987). Golden Jubilee, Diocese of Lansing Parish Historical Sketches. (see Google Snippet queries in above Talk history).

Additionally, these definitely contain a lot of relevant material but are not available online (see above Talk history):
St. Mary Cathedral (1980).
Lansing Journal (December 20, 1895). "Set HIM Out".
–Dgtlcraft (talk) 19:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Novem Linguae - For those last two references I need, it looks like I will be waiting for a while. I just received an e-mail back from the Library of Michigan:

Thank you for contacting the Library of Michigan. Staff are currently working from home and have limited access to the collections. The items you mention are not available digitally. We will place your request in our reference queue and begin working it when we gain access to the building and the collections.
Library of Michigan - librarian@michigan.gov
702 W. Kalamazoo St., Lansing, MI 48909


Even so, I believe the other references (above) should satisfy the notability requirements.
–Dgtlcraft (talk) 12:25, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Hey Dgtlcraft. Thanks for all your hard work on this. History of Ingham looks good. City in the Forest is probably good. Saint Mary Cathedral and your other sources I cannot verify, but I'm happy to assume good faith. I'll go ahead and accept this. Congratulations. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)