Talk:St Patrick's College, London

Course Correction

Hello everyone,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns St Patrick's College. I would like to extend a hand to the Wikipedia community in an effort to help improve this page and ensure that relevant, noteworthy and correct (sourced) information is present. My Conflict of Interest is that I am an employee of GUS - I seek to be fully compliant with the COI policies and hope to work with all editors for the improvement of the page. Following making my edit suggestions - I shall declare my COI on the WP:COIN page.

The edit I am requesting is for the change of courses offered in the introduction. To put it neatly - I would like the subjects of "Art, Law, and Design" removed since the college no longer offers these. This can be verified via the college's course page: https://www.st-patricks.ac.uk/schools

I am also asking for "post-graduate" to be changed to "undergraduate" - as this is also factual (and verifiable via the link above).

I am asking for this edit as it will update the page with the removal and changing of incorrect information.

Incidentally - the 'Courses' section of the page is entirely correct - it may be a useful template for editors regarding my request.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 09:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I've changed the lead paragraph to reflect the previously updated contents of the "Courses" section. I have not added "undergraduate" as that is encompassed by the Higher National Diploma programmes, the only ones on offer. The college does not offer undergraduate degrees, i.e. BA or BSc. Voceditenore (talk) 09:48, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

British Citizen

My Conflict of Interest is that I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns St Patrick's College. I seek to be fully compliant with the COI policies and hope to work with all editors for the improvement of the page.

I am requesting that the 'Establishment' section's reference to Aaron Etingen as "Russian-born entrepreneur Aaron Etingen" be updated to include that he is a British citizen. This can be sourced to the following Companies House page: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07933838/officers

If Aaron Etingen's original nationality is of note to the page, then so must his actual nationality. Aaron Etingen is a British citizen. That he is Russian-born is not of note to this page and whilst it may have been made prominent in media, it bears little relevance to St Patrick's page.

Should the inclusion of Aaron Etingen's British citizenship be rejected, the inclusion of his being Russian-born should also be removed.

I appreciate all time and advice from Editors. With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't help that the sources in the article on this point are inaccessible. Also, why is the subject called Aaron when the source the COI editor provided uses the name Arkady? The article says the subject is "also known as Arkady" but where is the source that uses both names equally? Is Arkady (Аркадий) the Russian name for Aaron (Аарон)? Pinging @Voceditenore: for their input.  Spintendo  15:36, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Spintendo, the Guardian article used as a reference further down in this article states that Aaron Etingen is also known as "Arkady Etingen" [1]. I've added an extra citation to the article to reference that. I've changed the wording to remove mention of him being Russian-born. However, I have not added "British" either. Strictly speaking, neither of those pieces of information is particularly germane to the college itself. However, both pieces of information are included in the parent company's article Global University Systems and will remain there. As I said on Talk:Global University Systems, the nationality and background of the company's founder, CEO, and majority shareholder is highly relevant, especially in the absence of a WP article about him. Voceditenore (talk) 16:33, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

MrAttempt, for future reference, Etingen's nationality and background will also remain in London School of Business and Finance where it is highly relevant—he was its founder and sole owner. It's also reliably sourced there to: Huggins, Donata (29 October 2010). "A man schooled for big business". City A.M.. Voceditenore (talk) 16:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Company accounts

My Conflict of Interest is that I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns St Patrick's College. I seek to be fully compliant with the COI policies and hope to work with all editors for the improvement of the page.

I am requesting that the following sentence be removed from the 'Establishment' section: "Unlike the UK, The Netherlands does not require company accounts to be made publicly available."

This information in this sentence is not relevant to the St Patrick's page as it relates to the organisation of GUS. If deemed relevant to be on Wikipedia, this information should be on the GUS Wikipedia page, rather than the page of one of its schools.

I appreciate all time and advice from Editors.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 09:20, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The paragraph itself introduces the subject of GUS by mentioning Etingen's establishment of it, so it is not outside the realm of mentioning that this particular fact is described. By the logic used in the proposal it would seem that removing the mentioning of GUS in part would necessitate the removing of it in whole. In any event I believe that removing it would require further discussion.  Spintendo  09:57, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo: . I would say that it is not necessary to remove the entire mention of GUS, but that the sentence I've requested for removal (though relating to the subject of GUS) is not relevant to St Patricks as a Wikipedia article. MrAttempt (talk) 10:12, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

In my view, it should stay as it is. It is indeed relevant. The fact that as one of its first steps, GUS transferred St. Patrick's and LSBF to Dutch holding companies was reported and discussed in multiple news stories at the time which also noted that doing so not only has only tax advantages, but also shields company accounts from public view. As with all GUS-owned colleges and universities, they are not only educational institutions, they are businesses. Decisions about how they are run are taken by GUS. Information about them as businesses is relevant to their articles and should remain. Voceditenore (talk) 10:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I feel that leaving it as it is, a sentence relevant to GUS rather than to St Patrick's, would be a mistake. Its presence on the St Patrick's page is inappropriate to the subject matter. I am still requesting that this be given broader consideration and that the sentence be removed. The subject is already covered in sufficient detail on the GUS page as it relates to GUS accounts. MrAttempt (talk) 11:05, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Voceditenore that decisions on how GUS is run is a relevant item of information, and that the argument that something pertaining to GUS should not pertain to one of its colleges is invalidated by the article already having mentioned other details about GUS, such as its organization by Mr. Etingen. If some details are allowable then others should be as well, and arbitrarily choosing which details are better to mention than others does not weight the article fairly.  Spintendo  15:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate entirely the argument for including facts in the area of GUS business pertaining to the St Patrick's page (such as those facts I have not requested to be removed). However, it is not logical to state that the presence of some facts on a subject area should validate the inclusion of other facts. This is a matter of relevance. GUS finances are valid on this page as a matter of their relevance and noteworthiness to St Patrick's College. When they stray (as the sentence of discussion does) from the page's subject matter, it becomes a prime candidate for removal. This is not a matter of arbitration - it is according to Wikipedia policy of relevance of the page. Additionally, the sufficient explanation this receives on the GUS Wikipedia page is where this information is relevant. It is not germane to St Patrick's College. MrAttempt (talk) 16:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

This does not stray from the subject matter. The subject is the college. The college is also a business and has been since 1998. The college as a business was transferred from a British holding company to a Dutch one. The news articles about St. Patrick's at the time all noted the advantages of using a Dutch holding company despite the fact that the college is located in the UK. Frankly, the only thing remotely interesting about this college is its history as a business. Paging Ronz for a second opinion. Voceditenore (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

The news articles about St. Patrick's at the time all noted the advantages. Could you point out some of the news coverage? Are any used in the article currently? Are any of them in-depth analysis, or are they simply routine coverage as described by WP:NOTNEWS? --Ronz (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

The summary article used as a reference is: Morgan, John (17 April 2014)."Private college goes Dutch but says profits are taxed in UK". Times Higher Education. It is devoted to this aspect of the UK colleges owned by GUS. It is not routine coverage. Other articles at the time concerned complaints from the teaching unions over the lack of transparency of the company's accounts. I'm currently on vacation with a very slow internet connection. Sorry, I can't do further searching for the similar articles until I return. The Times Higher Education requires free registration to access. Voceditenore (talk) 10:43, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. It's most certainly relevant.

It's a bit awkward at that location in the article, and out of the context from the source. --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

On re-reading the article, Ronz, I agree about the awkwardness. I would suggest either removing the sentence "Unlike the UK, The Netherlands does not require company accounts to be made publicly available." Alternatively, it could be explicitly attributed to the Times Higher Education article e.g "According to..." with further context added. But I think that could be an excessive amount of space devoted to this issue. Perhaps just leave the awkward sentence out but keep in the preceding text "In a subsequent reorganisation of his companies begun in late 2012, Etingen established Global University Systems which is registered in The Netherlands as a besloten vennootschap (BV), a type of private limited liability company. Global University Systems BV then became the owner of St Patrick's College and the institutions of the LSBF Group through Dutch BV holding companies." That stuff is relevant to the history of this college as a business. Voceditenore (talk) 11:45, 18 November 2018 (UTC)#

Hi @Voceditenore: and @Ronz:. I would be very happy with the removal of the sentence and keeping the preceding text to sufficiently explain the matter. Many thanks MrAttempt (talk) 09:23, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Per my comments above and in light of no further discussion from Spintendo or Ronz, I have removed the sentence "Unlike the UK, The Netherlands does not require company accounts to be made publicly available.". However, if either of you wish to restore or re-write adding context, I have no objections. Voceditenore (talk) 11:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Removal/alteration of sentence

Good morning,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

Similar to a recent request on The University of Law page, I am requesting that the final paragraph of the 'Post-2015' subsection be removed (excluding the statement regarding GUS' acquisition of The University of Law; if deemed relevant enough by Editors to remain).

As with my request on the ULaw page if restructuring took place in any capacity, ULaw is not and never has been the sole provider of academic degrees to GUS, including Masters degrees.

If restructuring took place in any capacity, ULaw is not and never has been the sole provider of academic degrees to GUS, including Masters degrees.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 10:35, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

@Voceditenore: for input.  Spintendo  14:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Realising my error in announcing my COI here. I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns St Patrick's College, London; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs). Apologies. MrAttempt (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2019 (UTC)