Talk:St Rhwydrys's Church, Llanrhwydrys

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Spelling - Llanrhwydrys or Llanrhwydrus

Latest comment: 8 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Ordnance Survey, COFLEIN, the Historic Place-Names of Wales, GENUKI and the 19th Century Gazetteers cited in GENUKI all use the spelling 'Llanrhwydrys'. Is there a reason for using 'Llanrhwydrus' ? If not, I suggest Wikipedia and its allied sites should follow the general consensus. Gwedi elwch (talk) 05:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I should have added that the Church in Wales also the spelling 'Llanrhwydrys' - referring to the Church of "St Rhwydrys, Llanrhwydrys" (in both the English language version of its website, and also in Cymraeg). See https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/en/structure/church/2113/ Gwedi elwch (talk) 05:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Gwedi elwch Is a disambiguator tag even needed? Is there another St Rhwydrus's Church? That just currently doesn't have an article? As St Rhwydrus's Church is free, but this article was originally St Rhwydrys's Church, Cemlyn, moved to the current to match the commons:Category:St Rhwydrus's Church, Llanrhwydrus. Can't comment on the name, as the place lacks an article too. @Ham II and Jaguar:

Plus would it be a double re-name, Rhwydrus to Rhwydrys and Llanrhwydrus to Llanrhwydrys, makes some sense to keep them inline. The article on the saint uses a "y", Saint Rhwydrys. Or should they be considered separately? Seen sources use either on the church's spelling.[1][2][3] Dank Jae 15:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I see that I moved the page in 2016, but the evidence for the most common spelling seems to point the other way, and I probably knew about fewer sources then than I do now – basing it on the Commons category now seems like a very poor rationale.

The ngrams for Llanrhwydrus versus Llanrhwydrys and Rhwydrus versus Rhwydrys show the "-ys" spellings being in more frequent use. Peter Bartrum's Welsh Classical Dictionary has Rhwydrys for the saint and Llanrhwydrys for the place, so that's probably an indication of the most scholarly spelling. Llanrhwydrys isn't covered in the List of Standardised Welsh Place-names. Both "-us" and "-ys" spellings can be found on Coflein.

I've just moved Saint Rhwydrys to Rhwydrys, following MOS:SAINTS. There could be a case for making Llanrhwydrys a redirect to the page on the church, as Pennant Melangell redirects to St Melangell's Church, Pennant Melangell; no doubt there are more examples.

I would keep the disambiguation even if it does buck the usual Wikipedia conventions, to help with sorting the article in its two categories. This was raised before in an RfC – Wikipedia talk:Categorization/Archive 18 § Request for Comment on sorting of UK churches in categories in English Wikipedia – but wasn't settled there. Ham II (talk) 20:27, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've moved the page to St Rhwydrys's Church, Llanrhwydrys now. I was also able to check the Dictionary of the Place-names of Wales (Hywel Wyn Owen and Richard Morgan, 2007) yesterday; Llanrhwydrys isn't covered there. Ham II (talk) 08:01, 28 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

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