Talk:Stanisława Walasiewicz

Nationality

She was Polish American, Polish-born naturalized US citizen. Describing Walasiewicz only as "Polish" is entirely wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.162.97.219 (talk) 14:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Personal Life

Is there any information about whether she got married or had kids or anything like that that could have shed some light on the gender issue? I realize they didn't have tests like they do now, but it'd be interesting to know if she married and tried to have kids 4.142.90.211 (talk) 20:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)eric

Various issues

Polish wikipedia says her parents emigrated to USA when she was 3 months old, while this article says "when she was two". Are there any sources for this information? rado 21:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I deleted some stuff that seemed like good sci-fi, but who the hell knows any more. Anyways, provide reliable sources about her questionable sex and include it. I am not even going to Google this. --Tom 16:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If you're questioning some facts in the text you should at least be able to state the reason. "I smell something fishy but won't move my finger" is not enough IMO. //Halibutt 16:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you read what I deleted? I usually put in the article and then come back in a few weeks when nothing has been done and delete the material, but the stuff I deleted was BEYOND wild. Again, it MIGHT be true, NOTHING surprises me any more but don't you think if somebody is going to add something SO WILD they should source it so the next guy that comes along isn't like, "what the f" when I read it?? Just some more of my ramblings...Now that I am curious, I will look into this and report back, you mind if takes a few moments?? Cheers! --Tom 16:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I guess fact is stranger than fiction. What are the chances of being killed as a bystander in a bank robbery? 0.1% What are the chance of being intersexual?? 0.1% Chances of both happening?? I still haven't found a reliable source, MANY mirrored sites and a few trivia sites that claim Walsh was a man?? Anyways, this article as it stands has zero referrences? I left a few citation requests and hope they can be sourced. I will try to help. Thanks! --Tom 18:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Now this is a much better approach, at least encouraging to add references rather than revert. I'll add some more tonight. //Halibutt 18:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been doing some research on this, and the "intersex" claim is pretty weak, based at most on speculation on unusual chromosomes (mosaicism), and lots of quotations that refer back to Wikipedia. Apparently Walsh has become a cause célèbre for the transsexual community, but the facts seem to be she was a man, plain and simple; both the New York Times (which had access to the autopsy report) and Britannica state this unequivocally, and it is consistent with Walsh's prior behavior (never getting naked around other women, or for that matter even spending any time with them) and the fact, not mentioned here, that her birth name was Stefan. Which leads to the obvious question: What the hell was Neil Olson thinking?  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 19:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Forget the husband to be, what about her/his parents?? I find it BEYOND belief that her parents raised her as a girl KNOWING she had a male package down there. Does this make sense to anybody?? I am also going to remove more unsourced claims like "humble" family ect. --Tom 20:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

What ProhibitOnions writes above seems highly improbable. The Gazeta Wyborcza article mentions Walasiewicz's biographer, dr. Maria Rotkiewicz who states clearly that I was not present during the autopsy so I cannot comment on its conclusions, but I saw Walasiewicz's birth record that states specifically that "a child of female form was shown". She also felt a woman throughout her life. (Polish: Nie byłam przy sekcji zwłok, więc nie chcę się wypowiadać o słuszności jej wyniku, widziałam natomiast akt urodzenia Walasiewiczówny, w którym stoi: >>Okazano dziecię płci żeńskiej<<. Stasia przez całe życie czuła się kobietą).

BTW, I'm quoting also the Polish original as my attempt at translation of 19th centurish legal church language is not perfect. //Halibutt 18:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I give up. She (and her parents, and her husband, and her teammates) obviously had issues, but what she didn't have, according to the autopsy, was a vagina. Guess her parents really, really wanted a girl.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 19:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the world is even more complicated then one might think... It might also be that Walasiewicz is alive and well and lives in Memphis... //Halibutt 21:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Aloofness

I took the liberty to remove the following part as it seems a tad strange. At the same time, Walasiewicz had a reputation for aloofness, and did not socialize with the other women athletes, causing some to be suspicious. [1]. The problem is that what the Canadian runner said is obviously true as she did not stay with the Canadian sportsmen but rather with her Polish friends. Some of them recall her as a friendly and helpful person (Kwaśniewska). Anyway, it's easy to suspect something... 60 years afterwards, but it proves little. //Halibutt 23:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Halibutt, VERY nice work on this article. I agree that people's comments/opinions should be left out of Wiki articles. ONLY material that can be sourced and ALREADY exists should be added. My own unscientific findings are that 90%, OR MORE, of Wiki IS NOT sourced. Now I am not saying 90% is INCORRECT, just that it isn't sourced properly. It seems that people/editors would much rather CREATE new articles as fast as they can rather than spending time to edit/source/cleanup articles that already exist. Again, sorry if we got off on the wrong foot but I REALLY appreciate your efforts. Thanks! --Tom 16:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, Halibutt (and nice work on the article), I wasn't happy with this part anyway - although the point should be made that there were some suspicions about her sex at the time, but there was even greater doubt about that of Stephens (due in part to a rather Machiavellian campain on the part of the Walsh camp), and the matter was dropped when Stephens proved to be female. Even if she kept away from athletes of other nations (which itself is, according to Olympic athletes I've known, frowned upon, but it does happen), it seems likely that a reason would be that Polish athletes wouldn't rat on her, but others might...  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 17:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. As to the link above and Onionic comments (too bad English doesn't cope as nicely with adverbs as Polish does): there was indeed a great deal of competition not only among the athletes, but also their "camps". This indeed might be the reason why such doubts are not mentioned in Polish sources. On the other hand it would be nice to have some better source for that than the link. BTW, I used it anyways, though in another part of the article. //Halibutt 18:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

He vs. she

This article refers to the individual as "he" in one sentence and as "she" in the next, but usually uses "she". Due to Stella having XY chromosomes, I think the article should use "he" exclusively. Comments on the matter? Useight 22:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Our most common practice is to use the gender the person identifies as. It seems clear that Stanislawa identified as a woman, as her birth certificate said female, she was given a woman's name, and the article says that her male sex characteristics were not discovered until after her death. - Montréalais 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, b.s. Walsh was a MAN who cheated. I hate these trans activists who want to pretend this man was anything other than a brazen cheat. He didn't "identify" as anything but posed as a woman so as not to be found out. He didn't count on being murdered and the truth would finally be revealed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.52.22 (talk) 23:08, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Skating career

I have Stanisława Walasiewicz as finishing 2nd in the women's 500m speed skating during the 9th National Championship of Poland, 11/12-02-1933. You can read a lot about her in the archives of the Polish sports paper Przeglad Sportowy, which has a good web archive for it's 1921-1959 publications. Dirk P Broer (talk) 23:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Found some more information, she seemed only to have reached two 4th places. Championship seems to have had only one day:

9th National Championship of Poland 11-feb 11-feb
11/12-02-1933, Warszawa (n) 500 m 1500 m
1. Lena Lukaszczyk Polonia - Warszawa 1.01.0 1 3.26.4 1
2. Kalatowna WTC - Warszawa 1.06.2 2 3.49.4 2
3. Jadwiga Nowacka AZS - Warszawa 1.18.0 3 4.09.7 4
4. Stanisława Walasiewicz WTL - Warszawa 1.24.8 4 4.00.4 3

references: Dziennik Poznański 1933.02.14; Przeglad Sportowy 1933.02.12Dirk P Broer (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Hermaphrodite"?

Hermaphrodite sounds like a terribly oldfashioned and not very precise way of describing this individual's gender. From this article, and especially the paragraph mentioning both XX and XY, I would guess this is a case of intersexualism involving mosaicism. The word hermaphrodite only confuses, and should be replaced. // 213.89.53.155 (talk) 16:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I was surprised that the word hermaphrodite wasn't mentioned, so I put it in right at the top. The text should be accessible to readers, not just scientists or specialists, so let's use terminology that can be understood by the widest range of readers.--Megaforcemedia (talk) 00:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The article hermaphrodite says "Historically, the term hermaphrodite has also been used to describe ambiguous genitalia and gonadal mosaicism in individuals of gonochoristic species, especially human beings". I fail to see how using outdated terminology is helpful to readers. I am not suggesting inserting guessings about mosaicism etc. in the article, just removing that strange word. I will try to make a compromise. // 213.89.53.155 (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone get some sort of coroners report on this person? I'd like to know exactly what the status of this person was gender-wise. My own point of view is that s/he was a cheat who stole her 100 meter victory from the legitimate would-be medal winner, Hilda Strike. She should have her medals taken away. I don't really see the point in obscuring this by using specialized terminology that nobody will understand. If you can present information that I haven't been privy to, I'd be willing to reconsider my rather negative assessment of this person. --Megaforcemedia (talk) 23:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I doubt there is any coroner's report available. Death certificates and coroner's reports are not available to the general public. It is clear Walsh was a fraud, one of the most brazen in Olympic history. ALL of the "intersex" nonsense was put forward years later by trans activists seeking to justify brazen cheating by making a phony "intersex" claim. After all, more than a few of the trans have brazenly cheated in women's competition (such as Fallon Fox and Rachel McKinnon). They want to lie about what is clear just by looking at Walsh when young and when far older. He was a dude in a bad wig. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.52.22 (talk) 23:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

That's a MAN, baby! A MAN! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.95.216.225 (talk) 22:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence Walsh was "intersex." What a bunch of liars to pretend otherwise. If someone has a Y chromosome, that person is a MALE. Walsh was a cheat who should have been stripped of his medals.

How could she posses male genitalia without the Y-chromosome? I changed the 46XX to 46XY. Max Dohle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.211.184.85 (talk) 19:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

This matter will probably never be settled as the field of genetics in relation to sex was very undeveloped at the time. Contemporary reports almost certainly won't answer those kinds of questions. To class this person as a cheat assumes that they knew full well the intricacies of sex genetics, knew which elements provided an athletic benefit, and that the official rules at the time provided a careful and knowledgeable treatment of mosaicism in athletes. None of that was true at the time, and most of that still is not true. The case of Caster Semenya shows how most people are not self-aware of these factors, and that modern science and athletics administration are not well equipped to handle a sensitive or consistent approach. SFB 12:20, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I hate liars who want to pretend Walsh was anything other than a cheat. The "intersex" meme was fabricated YEARS later. The liar in the preceding comment is no doubt a trans actvist who wants to justify a brazen cheat.There is NO evidence of "mosaicism." Walsh was clearly a dude with a bad wig. Furthermore, you are making nonsense up about Caster Semenya. Since there is NO public record of Semenya's health records, it is all b.s. speculation Semenya is "intersex."

Could we please remove this wall of transphobic ramblings? Thanks.

Detailed investigation

Detailed investigation has also revealed that she had both an XX and an XY pair of chromosomes. If detailed investigation exists, why is this sentence so undetailed? Her sexual identity is the key to understanding the article. both an XX and an XY pair of chromosomes is extremely vague. Does that mean Klinefelter's syndrome? XXYY syndrome? Or mosaicism as mentioned in a comment above? Or what else? --::Slomox:: >< 14:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

There isn't any, that's why. The "intersex" lie was put forward many years later, after Walsh was in jeopardy of losing his medals.Anybody with a Y chromosome is automatically a male. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.52.22 (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Good Question! Chrisrus (talk) 03:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I could be either mosaicism or chimerism. I don't think there's any way for us to know now. This source says mosaicism, but I highly doubt they did genetic testing to figure out which. http://0-www.britannica.com.libra.naz.edu/EBchecked/topic/1367962/Stanislawa-Walasiewicz-The-Curious-Story-of-Stella-Walsh

Also the article appears to say her chromosomes were XO and XX, which is NOT the same thing as XY and XX, and doesn not appear to be accurate nor sourced.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/sports-ugliestmoments/5/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.80.45.147 (talk) 03:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Stanisława Walasiewicz/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Looks very sciende fiction to me. How did they do research on her chromosomes? You need living cells for that kind of research. She was dead! Ambigues genitals, you say. Well that could be anything.

Last edited at 17:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 06:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Strange parallel

My grandmother was born of a Belorussian man and a Eukranian mother who immigrated to the US and then met and married- in 1912. They were rumored to be fleeing possible retribution from the Russian Revolution, having been Tzarist. None of this can I verify.

In order to conceal themselves from Bolshevik agents rumored to seek Tzarists in the Cleveland area, my great grand-parents fled to Canada, changing their name from "Walchuk" to "Walsh".

My Grandmother was born in Cleveland in 1915 and was named "Stella". Then became Stella Walsh.

A peculiar coincidence I thought would have not connection with Intersexed Stella Walsh, but odd they both took this name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.237.207.214 (talk) 06:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)