Talk:Staraya Ladoga

Redirect?

Why does "Ladoga" redirect here instead of to Lake Ladoga??--Kallerdis 20:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, calling Staraya Ladoga "the first capital of Russia" is hugely anachronistic which is to say, plainly wrong: Russia did not exist yet in the 8th century. Staraya Ladoga was a settlement that did not administer any tribal unions or lands. It was a trading (and raiding) outpost, not a capital of anything.

Agreed. --Ghirla | talk 16:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Second, the word 'Vikings' CANNOT be used interchangeably with the word 'Norsemen' or 'Scandinavians'. The Vikings were the raiders of the shores of Western Europe, a people defined by their occupation as well as by their ethnicity. The settlement at Staraya Ladoga had a rather large population of craftsmen. Many - perhaps most of whom - appear to have been of Scandinavian (Norse) background. Few - if any - were involved in naval raids and expiditions that define the word viking in English and traditional Scandinavian usage. They were NOT VIKINGS. They were, however, Norsemen (Scandinavians).

Agreed. --Ghirla | talk 16:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Third, the statement "In 862, the legendary Varangian leader Rurik arrived to Ladoga and made it his capital" is not verifiable in any meaningful way, contradicts the sole reference to Rurik we possess (i.e. the Primary Chronicle, which states that Rurik was invited from overseas and established himself in Novgorod), and does not mention the fact that Rurik quite possibly was a legendary character.

Disagreed. See here. --Ghirla | talk 16:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

997 attack

This web page says:

"The earliest trustworthy record of the Ladoga posad, which surrounded the citadel in a fan-like fashion, was made in 997, to the effect that a Norseman, jarl Eirik, had raided the area and burned it down. Around the year 1000, a new timber-and-earth fortress was built to replace its stone predecessor destroyed in 997."

Does anyone (Ghirla?) know what the sources for this are? I know that Fagrskinna and Heimskringla (using Bandadrápa as their source) say that Eiríkr Hákonarson sacked Ladoga between 995 and 1000. But I'm a bit surprised to see talk of a "trustworthy record". This sounds a lot like a destruction and rebuilding of the city just before 1000 is confirmed by archaeological evidence - but it's not quite explicit. Does anyone know more or know where I can find out more? Haukur 15:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should take the epithet "trustworthy" too seriously. They probably meant "first mentioned by a Western source", that is, by Snorri Sturluson, who wrote centuries later and cannot be trusted as a very "trustworthy" historical source. Forget about this touristy web site. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The site you added says much the same: "Первая крепость была построена Олегом Вещим на рубеже IХ-Х в.в. и разрушена ярлом Эриком в 997". There's also [1] which says the same, citing an overview of Ladoga in Norse sources from 1945.

You're right that Snorri wrote centuries later and is hardly completely reliable. But this story is also in the (slightly) older Fagrskinna and, more importantly, there is a skaldic verse which probably dates from 1000-1010 which states that Eric "broke Aldeigja". So, as Norse history goes, this is not so unreliable. What I really wanted to know was whether this was contradicted or supported by archaeology or continental sources. As far as I can see so far there are no written records on Ladoga from this time and historians seem to accept the Norse narrative as "trustworthy". I still wonder whether there is any relevant archaeological information. Thanks for the help. Haukur 18:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Tatiana Jackson of the Russian History Institute, the chief living authority on Norse-Kievan relations, writes in her "Austr i Gordum" (2001), page 108: "If back in 1941 Professor Rydzevskaya was constrained to acknowledge that prior excavations in Staraya Ladoga "did not reveal any traces of fire which could have been explained by the 997 expedition", the findings of the 1980s reversed this point of view. So, the excavations conducted in Varangian Street (on the left bank of the Ladozhka River) ascertained that "all the structures from the 2nd basic level" and many of the 3rd level structures "have traces of having perished in fire". It should be specified that the 3rd archaeological level of Staraya Ladoga is dated from 951 to 995; the 2nd level was formed in the 10th century as well. According to V.P.Petrenko, "one of these disasters was connected with the 997 campaign of Jarl Eirik" (see Петренко В.П. "Раскоп на Варяжской улице (постройки и планировка)", стр. 91, 92, 115, published in Средневековая Ладога: Новые археологические открытия и исследования. Л., 1985). The same may be said about the earthen ramparts (Земляное городище) of Staraya Ladoga, where "the badly damaged level XI" (dated to after 980) "perished in a fire" which is linked by the archaeologists to "the expedition of Jarl Eirik in 997" (see Мачинский Д.А., Кузьмин С.Л., Мачинская А.Д. "Ранние скандинаво-славянские контакты по материалам Ладоги VIII-X вв.", стр. 166, published in X Всесоюзная конференция по изучению истории, экономики, литературы и языка Скандинавских стран и Финляндии. Ч. 1. М., 1986)." --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow!! Thanks so much :) This definitely belongs in the Eiríkr Hákonarson article and I see you've made a start of working it into the text. We should probably add something to this article as well. Haukur 13:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I see the text you quoted can be found here: [2] Haukur 14:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It so happens that I have the book in my home library. If I knew it is available online, I wouldn't bother typing all this stuff. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it's great to have the page number of the printed version. Could you check the listing I made for the book in the references section of Eiríkr Hákonarson? Do you have information on the publisher? Is there an ISBN? :) Haukur 20:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

History of Laatokanlinna / Laatokankaupunki

Finnish viewpoint is this:

The history for Laatokanlinna (later Laatokankaupunki) former known as Nevanlinna (Castle Of Neva) dates back to the time of Guetes (Goths) when Jordanes mentioned the Finnish tribes ruled by Guete (Goth) King Ermanarik and little later in 551, when Jordanes wrote his describtion. By that time Finno Ugrian tribes had settled more than 1.000 years the area around Lake Neva which become later better known as Lake Laatokka. There was a large village founded 13 km inland from shores of Nevajärvi in the place now known Staraja Ladoga. That is for sure that the Slavonic tribes had nothing to do with this old settlement, because their most northern outposts by that time were in the upper course of River Dnjepr, south of Ilmajärvi (Ilmen Lake), of which direct transliteration in English is Air Lake.

Between 550 - 900 Laatokanlinna (Castle of Laatokka) become important trading place which was used as etappen point for mixed (Sveas, Hämes and Ests / Aestes) living in so called "Saaristolais Suomi" also known as "Luotola", in Ojamaa / Vuojonmaa (Gotland), the Moonsund Archipelago (Vormsi, Muhu, Hiiumaa, Saaremaa), The Ahvene / Åland (Perch) Archipelago, in addition to Roslagen (Uppland / Ylämaa) Archipelago. These tribes formed so called Rod (Rower) people, later known by Vatjas, Ingermanlanders, Karelians, Vepsäs (Veps) and other Finno Valka (Volga) peoples Merjas, Muromas, Mordvas, Maris and Ud-murts as Rootshis or Ruotshis.

Rootshis / Ruotshis started to seek new trading routes to the east and these trading routes along the great eastern rivers formed so called "Idäntiet" / "Östenvägar" (Eastways or East routes) to Black Sea and Caspian Sea. The Varakkis / Varjags (Pedlars) came later into the scene, in 750 - 1200 when they shared the use of "Idäntiet" and one earliest name for all these was simply "Idäntien kulkijat" (Eastway travellers). These were Rootshis and Scandinavian Pedlars, named Varakkis by Finno Volga tribes and Varjags by the Eastern Slav tribes who had settled by that time to the shores of Ilmajärvi (Lake Ilmen) and continued to spread toward north along the Alavanmaanjoki / Olhava River (Low Land River) toward Lake Neva / Laatokka. The Varakkis / Varjags settled in to this trading village in which the population incresed so much that in ancient Finnish history Nevanlinna / Laatokanlinna become named by Finns to Laatokankaupunki (which confirms the change of the name of commonly used Nevanlinna in c. 750 - 900), to a status of "town". The Scandinavian pedlars called this town Aldeigborg (Sveas) and Aldeigburg (Norsemen), the incoming Eastern Slav tribe population Staraja Ladoga. It is one of the oldest towns in Northern Roshland (actually located in Eastern Inkeremaa (Inkereland) and Vepsäland (Vepsland) borders. It is mentioned in Scandinavian sagas to be Rurik´s (Rurikka´s) first adminstration post in 862 - 865 before he moved it to Novgorod (Nygord, Nygard, Nogardia, Uuskul, Uuskylä etc.)

The Swedes destroyed it in 997 as said in old Scandinavian written sagas. There is also written mention of this "town" in old Arabic Bagdad Califate sources, formely not used by "Western" historians until recent days when they were "founded", which mentions undirectly the "town" in c.950. Swedes sieged the castle in 1164 but did not manage to capture it. In 1313 they managed to capture Staraja Ladoga and (probably) the castle remained in their hands up to 1323 when the first peace treaty in Noteborg (Pähkinäsaari = Nut Island) on the Neva Neck was signed between the Novgorod Commercial Republic and Kingdom of Sweden.

In 1338, when the hostilities broke out again the Swedes tried again to capture Staraja Ladoga but failed to capture it. After the Sweden-Finland and Muscovite Great Prince (Tsar) Vasili Shuiski agreement of Viipuri in 1610 broke down in 1611 the Swedish - Finnish troops commanded by French Colonel Laville, serving in Swedish army, captured Staraja Ladoga. This was the first military action taken by Swedish army during the "Sable War". The main aim was to blockade trade from Novgorod to overseas. They stayed there as long as war lasted, until the Peace Treaty of Stolbova was signed in 1617. It was from Staraja Ladoga the Swedish - Finnish negotiaters started their journey to small village of Stolbova, located in middle course of Sääsjoki on the historical border of Vepsäland (Vepsland). For some curious reason nearly all new ( after 1917 written Soviet / Russian histories) do not mention the internationally recogniced Peace Treaty of Stolbova. They talk commonly of "Swedish Occupation" over their land, which lasted until Peter the Great "opened the window" to Baltic Sea and West. According to Russian sources Carolus (Kaarle) XII attempt to conquere Staraja Ladoga during the Great Northern War in 1701 failed.

Staraja Ladoga lost its importance when Peter the Great founded new town in the mouth of Olhava River, Novaja Ladoga. Both Vanha (Old) Laatokankaupunki and Uusi (New) Laatokankaupunki lost their meaning as important trading posts after the foundation of St.Petersburg. The last nail was the railway line which was completed in 1906 and took the role of main transport route from Zvanka (Nevasi) on River Olhava to St.Petersburg.

JN

The picture of Old Ladoga in 1911, I believe, is actually of New Ladoga, (which is about 15 km north of Old Ladoga). I believe the churches pictures are the Church of St. Clement and the Church of the Nativity of the Virgin at the end of Karl Marx Street. They do not look like any of the still-extant churches in Old Ladoga.

Is 1911 picture of New Ladoga rather than Old Ladoga?

The picture of Old Ladoga in 1911, I believe, is actually of New Ladoga, (which is about 15 km north of Old Ladoga). I believe the churches pictures are the Church of St. Clement and the Church of the Nativity of the Virgin at the end of Karl Marx Street. They do not look like any of the still-extant churches in Old Ladoga. M. Paul

Etymology

I see that nobody posted the etymology of the word Ladoga

Ladoga derived from old pre christian Slavic term Ladyaga or Ladyoga; which meant "Lada"(goddess representing a swan; "ruler"(lada) or mLada (=Lads in english; "young people") & Yaga (like Baba Yaga.

• That's BS.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:52, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

  What do you western Christians know about Slavic old faith and history? NOTHING

  What can you know about me? Just stop talking nonsense.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Иванов, Иван Андреевич

• There was a significant artist with this name! EvaSolinus (talk) 17:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

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