Talk:Statue of Christopher Columbus (Columbus City Hall)

"the explorer's abusive relationship" is NPOV?

"The statue will be removed, as announced June 18, 2020, due to the explorer's abusive relationship with indigenous Americans."

Actual city statement says:

"For many people in our community, the statue represents patriarchy, oppression and divisiveness," Ginther said in a statement. "That does not represent our great city, and we will no longer live in the shadow of our ugly past. Now is the right time to replace this statue with artwork that demonstrates our enduring fight to end racism and celebrate the themes of diversity and inclusion." 1

I read that as the statue being removed because it's a lighting rod for divisiveness based on what it "represents" to "many people". That reason for removal is not the same as concluding the statue is being removed based on a neutral historical consensus on the nature of Columbus's "relationship with indigenous Americans".

The word abusive here is not a neutral explanation of the removal; the article is taking an active position on a political issue. "controversial" would be better - or just saying the removal is about the divisiveness of the statue as a symbol rather than a conclusion on Columbus himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.163.52 (talk) 16:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of the city's statement, the three statues of the explorer in the city are urged to be taken down due to the explorer's long history of subjugating and enslaving indigenous peoples. This is not a fact under significant controversy, it is generally accepted to be accurate. Nor is it popularly considered acceptable, so "controversial" is again improper. Again, it is important to note this relationship of dominance, control, and abuse is why the statues are being removed. ɱ (talk) 17:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, I'd like to note that a "political issue" is something like a school budget, or city services. Accurately stating the reason why Columbus is no longer favored by the public, and the reason why the statues were urged to be and ultimately removed, is a neutral statement of fact, and not anything relating to sides or politics. ɱ (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The main article on Columbus is much more objective than the sentiment expressed here. You both disregard the authoritative explanation of the reason for removal given by the city and the balanced review of Columbus’s legacy explained in the page dedicated to him. The intro to this article takes a position on the topic that is clearly not neutral. Claiming removal of statues is not a current political event with differing viewpoints is ridiculous- politics is not just about school budgets. There is no NPOV way to currently support “no longer favored by the public”.

68.118.163.52 (talk) 07:02, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for again pushing your view on the article. Your opinion is incorrect, it is a simple plain fact in the history books that he enslaved and murdered natives, and it was even viewed as harsh then, causing Columbus to be arrested and lose his place as governor. Failing to mention hard facts is an affront to history. No serious historian or authority doubts the evidence. ɱ (talk) 14:26, 28 June 2020 (

Did you read the main article on Columbus at all? This isn’t about opinion it’s about NPOV which you are clearly and repeatedly disregarding with not apparent justification. The wording you keep insisting on does nothing to improve the article. Instead it is clearly agenda oriented and distracts from the quality and seriousness of Wikipedia. Can you explain what’s wrong with the alternate text rather than attacking what you assume are my beliefs about Columbus? The article is about the statue not your summary of opinions on the man.

68.118.163.52 (talk) 16:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

I've read it thoroughly, and the statue was removed. The evidence is plain fact that he had:

• "poor treatment of the native Taíno people of Hispaniola"
• overworked the Taino people
• "The natives of the island were systematically subjugated via the encomienda system implemented by Columbus."
• "When natives on Hispaniola began fighting back against their oppressors in 1495, Columbus's men captured 1,500 Arawak men, women, and children in a single raid. The strongest were transported to Spain to be sold as slaves;[154] 40 percent of the 500 shipped died en route.[58] Historian James W. Loewen asserts that "Columbus not only sent the first slaves across the Atlantic, he probably sent more slaves—about five thousand—than any other individual."[155]"
• "During his brief reign, Columbus executed Spanish colonists for minor crimes, and used dismemberment as another form of punishment.[159]"
• "When Columbus fell ill in 1495, "what little restraint he had maintained over his men disappeared as he went through a lengthy period of recuperation. The troops went wild, stealing, killing, raping, and torturing natives, trying to force them to divulge the whereabouts of the imagined treasure-houses of gold."[160] According to Las Casas, 50,000 natives perished during this period"
• "Within indigenous circles, Columbus is often viewed as a key agent of genocide.[167]"

Directly from the article. I am not whitewashing his slavery and murder of indigenous people, as a Wikipedia editor, I have to respect history and the truth. ɱ (talk) 17:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Also from the article:

"In poor health, Columbus returned to Hispaniola on 19 August, only to find that many of the Spanish settlers of the new colony were in rebellion against his rule...Columbus had some of his crew hanged for disobedience. He had an economic interest in the enslavement of the Hispaniola natives and for that reason was not eager to baptize them, which attracted criticism from some churchmen.[87] An entry in his journal from September 1498 reads: "From here one might send, in the name of the Holy Trinity, as many slaves as could be sold ..."[88] Columbus was eventually forced to make peace with the rebellious colonists on humiliating terms.[89] In 1500, the Crown had him removed as governor, arrested, and transported in chains to Spain (see "Accusations of tyranny" section below). He was eventually freed and allowed to return to the New World, but not as governor." ɱ (talk) 17:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

relevance of the removal of confederate statues

my edit failed to remove the wikilink to the article on the removal of statues of Confederate figures, but that failure aside, user:ɱ has seen fit to restore the link despite Christopher Columbus being wholly unrelated to the Confederacy. the citation states other cities have removed Confederate statues but does not establish a link between these removals and this statue removal. i made a bold edit and user:ɱ reverted it but failed to discuss it here, per BRD specifically the "D": discuss. i would invite some input on whether it is appropriate to link this to Confederate statue removal from either user:ɱ or other users who might offer input. .usarnamechoice (talk) 04:16, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Context of an event is important. And I'm sorry, what event do you think ABC is referencing when it states "The push across the country to remove statues has now come to Central Ohio."? It's to the c. 2015-2021 initiative to remove statues and memorials to racists and slaveowners. Most of these were Confederates, but many were slaveowners, and several Christopher Columbus monuments were targeted as well. ɱ (talk) 17:19, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

It comes off as ignorance when so many sources support the relation, and the fact that the people who wrote this article at the time, myself included, lived through it and watched it happen. ɱ (talk) 17:26, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

then please forgive my apparent ignorance. i suppose my issue with it is the title of the linked article, and i will address it there another day. .usarnamechoice (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Source

• https://www.artworkarchive.com/profile/cityofcolumbus/artwork/christopher-columbus-columbus-public-art-collection

---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:10, 18 December 2022 (UTC)