Talk:Statue of George Washington (Wall Street)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Title

@Ham II: Since you moved Equestrian statue of George Washington (New York City), I'm curious if you think this article should be moved to Statue of George Washington (New York City) or Statue of George Washington (Ward)? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Here I'd go more precise with the location: Statue of George Washington (Federal Hall). A similar case would be Equestrian statue of William III, London and Statue of William III, Kensington Palace – if the latter had an article. Statue of George Washington (New York City) would be too ambiguous and should be a redirect to List of memorials to George Washington#New York City. Ham II (talk) 19:52, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Ham II, Agreed, thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:58, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

 Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted for several reasons. First, Federal Hall is simply wrong. The statue is at Federal Hall National Memorial, the building on the site of the demolished Federal Hall. Second, the title of the sculpture is George Washington[1], and similarly titled statues with articles on WP are disambiguated by the artist's name. See Category:Monuments and memorials to George Washington in the United States. This is also in line with WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE, where we should use the shorter, more precise name in preference to a description whenever possible. Station1 (talk) 09:29, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Station1, But Federal Hall is the name of the Wikipedia article. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Visual arts says, "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo", "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" are recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better. This may be done as either "Statue of Fred Foo (Chicago)" (typically preferred for North America) or "Statue of Fred Foo, Glasgow" (typically preferred elsewhere)." @Ham II: Inviting you to this discussion again. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:43, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Also, I won't make a deal of this, but 2 editors agreed to move the page above. You disagree and that's fine, but you should have started a discussion instead of just moving the page back because you disagree with current consensus. Please keep this in mind in the future. Looking forward to continuing this discussion. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:56, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

The WP article titled Federal Hall covers both Federal Hall (1700-1812) and Federal Hall National Memorial (built 1842 as the U.S. Custom House), named in honor of the original building that occupied part of its site. Many people confuse the two, thinking George Washington was actually inaugurated at the current 19th-century building, so I think it's important not to conflate the two. That is my main concern. If you had moved it to, say, "(Wall Street)" instead of "(Federal Hall)", I might have had a different reaction. But, nevertheless, a secondary issue is that the portion of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Visual arts that you quote, applies to works of art that do not have their own title. The first bullet says "The title of a work of art is italicised in text, as well as the article title itself." the second bullet says "If the title is not very specific, or refers to a common subject, add the surname of the artist in parentheses afterwards, e.g. Reading the Letter (Picasso)". Even when there is no title and the work must be identified by description, the guideline section that you quote recommends disambiguation by location only when "there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article" (not the case for Ward). In this case it appears that at least one reliable source refers to this sculpture with the title George Washington, although I have also seen General Washington. I realize titles of sculptures are not always clear, and would consider any rebuttal, but per WP:V and WP:CONSISTENT, I think policy and guidelines tend to favor using actual titles where possible.

As to starting a discussion, I take your point, but I do think two people agreeing locally, one of whom was canvassed, does not indicate a consensus. To be clear, I have no problem with your bold move, but bold moves can be reverted and then discussed. WP:RM is often used to discuss potentially controversial moves, and there's a good chance I would have noticed such a discussion and had a chance to object within the 7 days these normally take. As it is, I stumbled upon this by chance, and only noticed the title because of my interest in Federal Hall and instant realization that the title was incorrect. Station1 (talk) 07:49, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Station1, I understand your points. I would not assume George Washington is the official title of the work, based on the Smithsonian survey. I love the results of the Save Outdoor Sculpture survey, but the titles used are not always correct. Over at WikiProjects Public Art/Sculpture/Visual arts, we've been working hard lately to move articles based on the recent change to the visual arts manual of style I mentioned above. I understand your concerns about local agreement. I'll start a move discussion. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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George Washington (Ward) → Statue of George Washington (Federal Hall National Memorial) – Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Visual arts says, "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo", "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" are recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better. This may be done as either "Statue of Fred Foo (Chicago)" (typically preferred for North America) or "Statue of Fred Foo, Glasgow" (typically preferred elsewhere)." I don't think we should assume George Washington is an official title based on the "Save Outdoor Sculpture!" entry. While I prefer Federal Hall, since that's the name of the Wikipedia article, another editor prefers Federal Hall National Memorial, and I guess that's fine. --Another Believer _(Talk) 14:45, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

• Move to Statue of George Washington (Wall Street), for a briefer disambiguator. Another Believer has already quoted our article title convention for portrait sculptures in public places; I would add WP:CONCISE: 'The goal of conciseness is to balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the general subject area.' Statue of George Washington (Wall Street) does this better than George Washington (Ward). Ham II (talk) 09:07, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
  • For the record, I am also fine with this title. I'm mostly concerned about moving to "statue of George Washington" and disambiguating by location instead of artist name. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:31, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per [2] Station1's reference in an above section that George Washington is the official name, so unless there is another accredited name for the statue the present title seems fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support move to Statue of George Washington (Wall Street). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:30, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support Statue of George Washington (Wall Street). -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:49, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.