Talk:Statue of Marduk/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 17:54, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Happy to review the article.

Assessment

Lead section

• Link conflation (conflated) (also in the 'Role…' section)

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• The Statue of Marduk, also known as the Statue of Bêl… - According to MOS:LINKSTYLE, 'Links should not be placed in the boldface reiteration of the title in the opening sentence of a lead.'

Fixed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• The image at the top of the article cannot be verified - I will see if if can help here.

The caption used follows the caption used for the same image on page 559 of Schaudig (2008), which is cited in the caption here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I cannot access Shaudig, but in any case the image appears to be of the god Marmuk, and not the statue (see this for instance, which describes an almost identical image). If you want to use the image currently in the article, the information at [1] needs show definitively what it depicts and that it is in the common domain, and at present it doesn't. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I can see that the Commons page is problematic. I've amended the info on commons and added proper licensing info (one interesting thing is that the authors life + 70 years tag did not apply when the image was uploaded in 2005, but it applies since 2014). I added Schaudig's caption on Commons, which should suffice as to what the image depicts. I'm inclined to believe Shaudig (who is a Privatdozent in Assyriology and the languages and cultures of the Ancient Near East, link) over the World Mythology book since his article is to a large degree specifically about Babylonian religion and his caption is more detailed (with info on where the image comes from, no less!). As to the image depicting Marduk; of course it depicts Marduk, the god and the statue are (as this article points out) in many cases the same thing. I think it's probably the statue (even if it depicted the god, what would the artist base his image of the god of? - the statue). Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Looks much better! Amitchell125 (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• I would move ref 2 in the lead section to later on in the sentence, after (Bêl, meaning "lord", being a common designation for Marduk).

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Background

• ...of the city Babylon,… - 'city of Babylon'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• Looking at the Wikicommons information about the image 'File:Tiamat.JPG', it is not possible to verify that it is in the public domain (see WP:PD) and therefore cannot be used. Consider using this as an alternative. Also, the image would normally be on the right hand side of the text, particularly as it follows a section heading.Amitchell125 (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the image altogether; while the Tiamat.JPG used could possibly depict Marduk, the deity depicted in the alternative suggested is more likely to be Ninurta. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Appearance and other statues

• ...with a separate deity.. - I would include the diety's name

I didn't put in the link currently linked with "a separate deity"; the name of the separate deity is supposed to be just Asullḫi (same as the name of the statue). I've removed the link there, which might make it more clear. Could rephrase it too if you think that's necessary. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...important 13-day long New Year's festival… - to some readers it might seem that the festival was held around January 1, so clarification is needed (e.g. Dalley p.163 refers to the New Year occuring during "month of Nisan", clearly nothing do do with our modern New Year).

Yeah, the Babylonian New Year was in the spring. I've written that right after "important 13-day long New Year's festival"; "13-day long New Year's festival held annually in the spring at Babylon". Do you think specific dates should be provided here? Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Fine now - AM

• Link regalia (also, the preceeding 'royal' is not needed here and can be removed).

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• …his homeland Elam. - unlink Elam (already linked in this section).

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• ... under their king Tiglath-Pileser III… - amend the sentence to ensure it is clear that Tiglath-Pileser was an Ayssyrian and not a Babylonian king.

I've rephrased the sentence, is this fine? Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Looks a lot better - AM

• Consider using an image of the temple (e.g. this) to accompany the text.

Added image. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• Amend ref 8 (George) to pp. 65-66 as some of the information is on p. 65.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Role and importance

Most—but not all—of these points are to do with the prose, and can be addressed quite quickly.

• The Babylonians themselves conflated… - a minor point, but I think it needs to be quite clear that 'The Babylonians' refers to the citizens of Babylon and not the people of the Babylonian Empire. Consider replacing with 'The citizens of the city...'.

Yeah, sure. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• (meant to be the place of the statue) - improve the English of this phrase, e.g. by replacing it with '(intended to support the returned statue)'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...paraded through Babylon… - consider 'paraded through the city' to avoid repeating Babylon to many times here.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...received the Babylonian crown… - 'received their crowns' (too many Babylonians!)

Done. This is a very Babylonian article :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• The rule of the Babylonian king and his role as Marduk's vassal on Earth was also reaffirmed annually during the New Year's festival… - consider editing the prose to 'Both his rule and role as Marduk's vassal on Earth were reaffirmed annually at this time of year…'.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...on the fifth day… - 'on the fifth day of the festivities…'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• During the ensuing ritual,… - not needed here.

Removed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• The king then told… and ...replied … - imo this would sound better put as 'The king would then tell…' and '...would reply...'.

Yeah I agree, changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...the king would continue to enjoy divine support… - replace would with 'could'?

I think both work fine here, but yes, replaced "would" with "could". Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ..."negative confession" … - I'm not sure why there are quote marks here, as Deloucas refers to the speech as the Negative Confession, without quotes.

Removed the quote marks, I had just never heard the term "negative confession" before. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Because the significance the statue held to the city, enemies of Babylon… - 'Because of its significance to the city, Babylon's enemies..', or something similar.

Went with your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• If the statue was absent,… - 'Without it,…'

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...and made other religious activities and rituals difficult to perform. - 'and religious activities were difficult to perform.'

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Though the statue's absence from Babylon meant confusion and hardship, the Babylonians believed that foreign lands benefited from having the statue and that it brought prosperity wherever it went. - 'The statue's absence meant confusion and hardship for the Babylonians, who believed that foreign lands benefited from having the statue as it brought prosperity wherever it went.'

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• The statue of Shamash was destroyed by the Suteans… - 'It was destroyed…'.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• As the statues held… - either 'As it…' or 'As these statues held…', depending on the context.

Went with "As these statues..." since the Shamash affair shows to illustrate how "difficult" it would be to replace the Marduk statue. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...inspires the god… - '...inspired the god...'.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Gods could exist… - Consider making this the start of a new paragraph.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• As such, though statues and other cult images could be harmed… - no need for As such.

Removed "as such". Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...restoring the statue. - 'restoring it.'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...(a goddess of sex, war, justice and political power associated with the planet Venus)… - needs citing (e.g. using Refs. 1 & 35 from the article Inanna).

Added the refs you mentioned (in one, since one was p. 108 and the other was p. 108–109). Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

History

Journeys of Marduk

• link pedestal

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...the statue would spend… - 'the statue spent'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...but the statue returned to Babylon at some point and was later… - 'but it was returned and then'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...as somewhat heretical… - is somewhat necessary?

No, removed it. From the perspective of Babylon, Sennacherib was a heretic through and through (especially after he razed their city to the ground). Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...had a tendency to end up dead at the hands of their own family members. - end up dead needs to replaced with 'die'. Also ...all ended up killed… ('all killed') (see MOS:EUP)

Fixed around with this a bit. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Fate

• Xerxes dropped King of Babylon… - according to Dandamaev, the full title king of Babylon, king of the lands was abandoned.

Xerxes dropping "King of the Lands" is not as important for the context here as him dropping the Babylonian title, but yes, I've changed it to "dropped the previous royal title". Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...was led by a rebel of the name Bel-shimanni. - 'was led by Bel-shimanni.' (he was clearly a rebel as he led a revolt).

True, done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...might be anti-Persian propaganda. - according to who?

I got this from the quote "a story of a Persian king destroying the statue of a god to teach a lesson to the people of a city he had just razed would have neatly furthered their respective agendas in portraying the Persians as insensitive, brutal, and impious" in the source cited. I've some author info in the text and elaborated a bit. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...and some have even suggested that Xerxes did remove a statue from the city… - who suggested this?

Amended and added info; Briant says that this is a possibility but I don't think he can really be said to be "suggesting" this, since he thinks more evidence would be needed to support it. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:47, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Though mentions of it are lacking considerably compared to earlier periods… - it's not clear what it is referring to, also considerably can be removed (WP:FLOWERY)

Changed "it" to "the statue" and removed "considerably". Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:30, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• ...that there was damage done by him to temples in the city is mentioned by later authors as well. - 'later authors mention the damage he inflicted upon the city's temples.'

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:30, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

See also

• Consider explaining why the link in this section is included. Remove the section title if you decide to remove the link.

Do you think the link is unnecessary? I feel like Marduk's statue, as a now missing (destroyed???) religious object which held enormous significance for 1000+ years, with strange powers ascribed to it, (though not as famous) fits in well with stuff like the the Tomb of Alexander the Great or the Ark of the Covenant. It's difficult to come up with a decently phrased explanation to put in the article, though. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:40, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Thinking about it, I don't think the inclusion of the link affect the GA review. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

References

• Link Pierre Bryant; Peter Machinist; Dandamaev, Muhammad A (second time); A. Leo Oppenheim; Bert van der Spek ('R.J. ven der Spek'); Simo Parpola

Didn't know all these historians had articles; done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Link Oded Lipschits and correct spelling mistake.

Oops. Linked and fixed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Consider replacing Ref. 25 (Luckenbill) with this from the Internet Archive, which is much easier for some readers to access.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:57, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Amend the information about Born in Heaven, Made on Earth: The Making of the Cult Image in the Ancient Near East, the book was edited by Dick (the book's chapters were not all written by him). The source should read: * Walker, Christopher; Dick, Michael Brennan (1999). "The Induction of the Cult Image in Ancient Mesopotamia: The Mesopotamian mīs pî Ritual". In Dick, Michael Brennan (ed.). Born in Heaven, Made on Earth: The Making of the Cult Image in the Ancient Near East. Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns. ISBN 978-1575063423..

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Consider replacing the url for Bryce with this from the Internet Archive

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:57, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Ref. 34 cites Waerzeggers' chapter in the book, the author and the chapter should also be included in the citation.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments completed. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: I've responded to all your comments as best I could. The only one I was really uncertain about was the comment about linking Lost history under "See also". Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Passing

The text is in great shape now, thanks for all the amendments Ichthyovenator, and for the work you have done on producing a really interesting article. I'll do a final read through of the article and maybe tweak a few minor points if I find them, but passing it now. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Thank you for taking the time to look through the article (and for passing it)! :)