Talk:Steamshovel Press

Bibliography

I'm not sure that it makes sense to list Kenn Thomas' bibliography on this page about the magazine he co-founded. Netuser500 20:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, especially since the same bibliography is on Kenn Thomas... However, I do think it's worth listing the authors who have been published by the magazine. ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 21:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Complaint

The Wikimedia Foundation has received a complaint stating that Philip Gounis did not co-found this magazine. In addition, could you please not remove arbitrarily the "prod" tags? David.Monniaux 12:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Received from who? Provide evidence... You've reverted 2 people who have provided evidence to the contrary already now...:

• Kenn Thomas and Philip Gounis, Steamshovel Press #7, 1993, Steamshovel Press, St. Louis, Missouri, 1993. 8x11, 59 pages

∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 20:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You are not authorized to see emails from OTRS, but you are of course welcome to contact a second person with OTRS access and get confirmation. David.Monniaux 05:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, just as statements require evidence, so do statements to the contrary. How did the complainer prove Gounis did not co-found the magazine? Please reveal the details of https://secure.wikimedia.org/otrs/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketID=921460&ArticleID=1139976&QueueID=59 -- you don't have to include the submitter's name, of course. According to an expanded search result from isbn.pl, apparently, Gounis co-authored issue 10, too... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 12:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've emailed Gounis (via an email address found on http://philipgounis.com/) and he claims:

On a tape recording of a Presentation of Small Press Editors at Duff's Restaurant in St. Louis, Mo. in June 1992, Kenn Thomas talks about the start of Steamshovel Press and acknowledges my co-founding of the magazine. At present I do not have a digital copy of that presentation; if you would give me a mailing address where I can send a copy of the tape for verification I will do so.

Is there a Wikimedia Foundation email address he could send it to to dispute the complaint? ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 13:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Gounis just emailed me a scan of, what he claims, is the first issue:

The attachment shows the cover of the first issue which was simply a transcript of an interview that we had done with Ram Dass - Thomas had xeroxed the transcript on his office copy machine at the University of Missouri at St. Louis, Mo. - we then simply stapled and distributed it.That was the first issue of Steamshovel Press. On the next few issues I was clearly credited as the co-editor on the masthead.

∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c)

Since Kenn Thomas has bragged about complaining to get Phil removed, and Kenn Thomas has been editing this article, I think it's obvious who complained. (Hint: He's the anon editor with the UMSL IP address.) Netuser500 19:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't obvious to me, having been unaware of Thomas' braggings and previous complaints (or that it was even he who complained this time, if true). Regardless, this needs to get out in the open and resolved, but David.Monniaux has yet to reply... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 19:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, the Wikimedia Foundation does not care about conflicts about who really founded some obscure magazine, and neither do I. David.Monniaux 13:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Uh, then why did you even bother bringing up the complaint in the first place? What a hypocritical cop out... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 00:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It is brought up because the complaint could very well have been or could very well be valid; and I think David's "cop out" is simply "I don't want to deal with this crap any more". —Centrx→talk • 05:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm familiar what what a cop out is--thanks. However, I find it hypocritical that David would block Mosaic2007 for a week (quite long for such a minor "infraction" of editing this article) based on an unconfirmed/unreferenced complaint that turned out to be wrong anyway... I think, at least, David should apologize to Mosaic and may even need an adminstrative review... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 06:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation may not care about conflicts involving obscure magazines, but it should care about its own rules being followed. Since this is an article about Kenn Thomas, he should not be allowed to edit it. Aren't those the rules? Also, on editing the prod tags: I edited a tag that said "please edit this and then remove the tag," which is what I did. For that, I was blocked. If you don't want users to edit the prod tags, simply don't include that in the instructions. Mosaic2007 00:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

founding complaint

Phil Gounis' name needs to be removed from this entry. He no more "co-founded" the magazine than any of the other writers mentioned in the entry who wrote/write for it. His "evidence" for this is simply me trying to give him more credit than was his due at the time. He later took me to court because he thought he was owed a lot of money for the haiku he wrote in early issues and was laughed out of court. I agree totally that the magazine is obscure and this is much ado about nothing, but Gounis attaches enormous importance to this "co-founding" fantasy and it's simply not fair to others who have done far more than he ever did working on it. Especially considering that he tried to destroy the magazine early on with his lawsuit, I think it's enormously unfair that wiki allows him to attach his name to it in this way. It's absurd.

Kenn Thomas —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.124.93.110 (talk • contribs) 08:17, June 18, 2007 – Please sign your posts!

• So now you're outing yourself as the previously anonymous editor who has been trying to deny the truth. Furthermore, you've been editing an article that's about you, a clear violation of Wikipedia Foundation policy. Sheesh! Your special pleading has fallen on deaf ears. Disinterested editors have researched the founding of Steamshovel Press, and the truth has been documented. The fact that you don't like it means nothing. Netuser500 20:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Yea, really, Kenn. I've seen Gounis credited on at least 2 issues, 1 and 7--if he wasn't a cofounder, how do you explain that? Provide evidence about the court case--like a link to the actual courthouse documents, for example. I emailed Gounis to do the same thing yet he hasn't replied yet... ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 03:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't really care what you guys do. I haven't read Wikipedia's foundation whatever and have no familiarity with its various protocols, and its really presumptive to think anyone would take the time. You are just extending this Phil Gounis foolishness unneccesarily. Gounis doesn't even care if it's on there; this has all been instigated by my ex-wife to annoy me. Wikipedia has embarassed itself before (with a guy name Siegenthaler as I recall, someone who was beat up during the civil rights Freedom Rides in the south but who was pegged by Wikipedia as one of RFK's assassins), and I guess this will just be another example. How many other by- lines did you find in those first seven issues? Should they all get "co-founding" credit? But unless I study the various ways Wikipedia does things and am constantly vigilant against my ex-wife changing things back, it will remain wrong. But, hey, it's your wikipedia. You're welcome to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.124.93.110 (talk • contribs) 12:36, June 26, 2007 – Please sign your posts!

Hard to see the cover of the 1st issue as a byline, Kenn... This has nothing to do with your ex-wife, but it has everything to do with getting to the truth. ∞Σɛ_Þ² ^(τ|c) 20:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Something about "Interview with Ram Dass by Kenn Thomas and Phil Gounis" looks like something other than a byline to you? I have had correspondence with my ex-wife about this and she fully cops to making the changes. You might BE my ex-wife for all I know. I do know you are making much ado about bullshit and wikipedia is worse for it. Congrats. You just keep diggin' for that "truth" there, bud. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.124.93.110 (talk • contribs).

I agree that the cover only proves that Gounis did the interview, not that he co-founded anything. In fact neither of the links provided as evidence in the references proves the statement. Also, I don't think the article should link to its talk page for evidence. I'm not disputing that Gounis was a co-founder, but I think it needs to be better supported. If it can't be, then it should be removed--Dcooper 02:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

So, what's the evidence that Kenn Thomas founded Steamshovel Press? 68.89.149.2 17:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The new york times article is the current reference. That's a strong source. When I did a google search, I saw other references to "Thomas's Steamshovel Press." I looked for something saying that Guinan cofounded it but couldn't find one. If you know of a reliable secondary source that attributes the founding to Guinan, please put in the article or let us know here.--Dcooper 19:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the e-mail correspondence is original research and I'm deleting it now.--Dcooper 02:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no strong evidence that Thomas founded the magazine. The New York Times reference only shows that Thomas stated he was the founder. The other references mentioned are probably also all based on his claim to being the founder. In a court of law, that would be called hearsay. Further, Phil's last name is Gounis, not Guinan (he's not an alien black woman as far as I can tell). -- signed, Mosaic2007

I'm pretty sure that Geordi founded Steamshovel press.--Dcooper 19:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The truth is, the staple gun used to put the first issue together was owned by Gounis. But Thomas won't admit it. Jim Cregan, 9:04, 13 January, 2008