Talk:Steinway D-274

The following is an archived discussion of a debate held over whether the article Steinway Model D-274 should be deleted and changed to a redirect. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made under this box

This discussion was copied here from Talk:Steinway Model D-274 by Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 08:42, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Beware that the discussion in this box is about the old article "Steinway Model D-274" which was created by User:Pianoplonkers. The old article is now deleted and redirects to Steinway D-274.
The article Steinway D-274 of today created on March 13, 2010, is very different from the old article. Fanoftheworld (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Introduction 1

I removed unsourced unencyclopedic POVs from the intro. --Karljoos (talk) 15:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed the unsourced info about the bejing olympics piano as some internet sites claim it is a fake and i could not find any sources to suggest it was a Steinway Model D-274.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 09:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

"Steinway Artists" and "Quote" sections

These sections are not relevant in the article as do not add anything to the article and are mere external links. Also, all the info is already available in the main Steinway and sons article. I am removing both sections. --Karljoos (talk) 15:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Sources

"Steinway & Sons Book"? Just that? Is that all the reference? Please provide a full, complete, reputable, independent and verifiable source. The next step to something as vague as "Steinway & Sons Book" is "My Grandma told me". Thank you --Karljoos (talk) 15:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I am very sorry to be so vague Karljoos but the book/leaflet in question does not have an actual title, the only text on the front is the Steinway and Sons logo.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I added an independent, neutral source to the Encasement section. --Karljoos (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for you contributions to the article Karljoos.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 09:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I have added a source to support info in the construction section--Pianoplonkers (talk) 09:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for providing more sources. It would be great if you could give the ISBN, page where you found the info you're sourcing, and the publisher. It sould look like this: Ritter, R. (2002). The Oxford Style Manual. Page 22. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-860564-1. It allows a reader to find the source and verify that it supports material in Wikipedia. --Karljoos (talk) 11:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Construction

This whole section advertises Steinway & Sons as it was copied from their book on Steinway Model D's (unknown official title). I have removed this section until a more factual replacement is made. --Pianoplonkers (talk) 10:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Good, but try to avoid promotional materials as sources, as they are not objective. Also, don't forget that all articles must strive for verifiable accuracy: neutrality, verifiable and reliable sources are essential. In this case I think it's ok you use promotional material from Steinway and Sons as a source for technical aspects, but usually they should be avoided, as they are, as I said, not neutral. Also, copying exactly from a source is not in the manual of style as might constitute a violation of the copyright. Finally, don't forget that the sources have to be correctly cited: read how to cite a source. The ISBN, page, author and the publisher should be given. Good luck and thank you for contributing!--Karljoos (talk) 13:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice Karljoos, The Information has been written out in my own words so should not violate copyright.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I have moved some of the infomation from the encasment section into the construction section beacuse i feel that it is more relavant to this section.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 09:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Documentary film

There's a whole article regarding this documentary film. Information regarding the reception of the film, artist who are on the film etc are not relevant. The only relevant aspect of this documentary for this article is that the piano built is a Steinway Model D. I'm removing the superfluous info. --Karljoos (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Photos

The picture of Horowitz is not relevant in the article, as the subject of the article does not appear on it. I am removing it. --Karljoos (talk) 15:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Can we dicuss this as we are confused to why you removed it. He is one of the Steinway Artists and played most of his concerts on a Model D. Therefore we think it is a releavant photo.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 11:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I drive a Honda Civic, should we put my picture on the Civic's page? Other piano models do not contain photos of pianists who endorse their product.THD3 (talk) 13:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed the broken picture link--Pianoplonkers (talk) 09:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Music

No source indicating that this is actually played by Rachmaninov on a Steinway model D has been indicating. I am removing the music. --Karljoos (talk) 16:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Converting to prose

I tried to edit this so it was prose but the format looked messy and it was harder to understand. Therefore I have not changed this. PLease discuss any fursther issues with converting this --Pianoplonkers (talk) 11:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Maybe you could say something like "Model D is the largest of the Steinway Grand Pianos (274 cm x 156 cm, 480 kg) and has a retail price in the UK of c. £100,000 GBP. The info about the pedals I think is superfluous as most standard grands have them. Please, don't forget to include an independent verifiable source in the correct wikipedia format. --Karljoos (talk) 12:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit war

You have taken ownership of this article (it is not yours because you started it) and it seems necessary to ask a third party an opinion regarding this article. This is what I think is wrong and why I request a third part opinion:

1.I think this article might not meet notability criteria. Most of the information about this product is already in the main article about Steinway and Sons.

2. There are no references in the article and most of the references provided do not meet criteria of verifiability (they are not commercial books) and neutrality (some are advertising material from the company making these pianos).

3.The section regarding the Steinway artists is unreferenced, it is just a collection of external links , in some of the external links there’s no info about model D, it is not related to the article (the artists do not say which Steinway model they play), and there’s a whole section about Steinway Artists in Steinway and Sons

4.You had at the beginning of this edit war removed all tags.

5.Audio: There’re no sources indicating that the piece is actually played by Rachmaninov on a Steinway D. It was removed and then re-added without adding references.

6. Picture of Horowitz is not related to the article (he is not shown playing a Model D).

7.Intro: There’re unsourced unencyclopedic POVs from the intro: "(...)the most favoured piano choice for concert pianists, past and present. The D-274 is used all over the planet in world famous recitals(...)" etc. I removed them and they have been put in again.

8.The documentary: There's a whole article regarding this documentary film. It contains info which is not relevant for this article. I deleted it and it’s been taken in again.

9. Technical data: it is very vague and quite honestly, not relevant. For example: “it has three pedals”…. Of course, all grands do. It’s like saying “cars have four wheels”.

10. Quotes: The quotes don't refer specifically about this Steinway model.

11. Citation tags have been removed without providing a proper reference.

Editing has become impossible because the user Pianoplonkers is slowly taking all the original stuff back. Thank you.--Karljoos (talk) 13:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Major Edits by Karljoos

We feel that the deletions of some of the sections of the page is unfair as we have spent alot of time trying to make it so we are going to add some of the sections deleted back into the page. If someone has a valid reason why this is not a good idea then please discuss it here before taking action on the page. If this is valid and people agree then we will happily remove the content.--Pianoplonkers (talk) 12:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Karljoos's edits go toward making the article less of an advertisement and more objective and, ultimately informative. Packing an article with trivia only winds up obscuring the factual information on the subject at hand. It must also be noted that the Steinway & Sons page has been the subject of numerous edit wars caused by single-purpose editors who were trying to slant the page toward promoting Steinway pruducts, so Karljoos has good reason to be watchful.

Page move and large-scale changes by Binksternet

I moved this page from Steinway Model D to the more specific Steinway Model D-274 because of the specificity of the lead paragraph, and of some of the subsequent supporting paragraphs. Earlier Model D numbers were not discussed. I removed unnecessary peacock words, phrases and sentences, and I took out any mention of generic Model Ds. None of the artists listed had references saying they needed only the D-274, so the whole list goes out. The audio file was not a D-274: out it goes. Binksternet (talk) 12:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and changes. I did something simmilar but my changes were reverted twice, as have yours too.--Karljoos (talk) 17:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Undo previous revisions

These edits did not improve the article and I have reverted it back. This way the article can be improved from a better start--Rachmaninoffrus (talk) 14:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I have the impression that new wikipedia user Rachmaninoffrus is a puppet user of Pianoplonkers. Note the simmilar style of making and reverting without discussing and also the same use of the first plural person to refer to a single user account in "their" user page ("we think", "we believe"). --Karljoos (talk) 16:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I am a single user and the comment above shows that I am not using we. I do not know how you got to the fact that I was a puppet account. I totally agree with Pianoplonkers because you are removing information where it is useful. You are cutting out parts so that the rest doesn't make sense (read construction carefully and compare with previous versions). Stop changing this page. It is good as it is. The page is not benefitting from your edits. --Rachmaninoffrus (talk) 17:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

LOL, you changed "We love the piano and think it is the best instrument in the world" to "I love the piano and think it is the best instrument in the world". Anyway... it does benefit from my edits because it removed all the promotional, unreferenced and unsourced material making the article read more like an encyclopedic article. But of course, Pianoplonkers, did take them out. Also, note the comment and changes made by editor Binksternet, who is a very experienced veteran editor. I don't think I will revert changes again, but if I see removal of tags, changes or reverts made to other editors who have really improved the article I will definitely have to think if I will be reporting Pianoplonkers and Rachmaninoffrus for possible vandalism, edit warring and possible sock puppetry.--Karljoos (talk) 17:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Delete all content and change to redirect

I propose to delete all the content at this page and change both Steinway Model D and Steinway Model D-274 into simple redirects pointing to Steinway & Sons. The reason I wish to delete this content is that I have been searching for mention of the D-274 (and the Model D) in newspapers, books and magazines, and I have found nothing to make me think this article is noteworthy. As a prelude to deletion, I am adding the notability template so that editors who know more about the subject can have a chance to bring reliable, verifiable secondary sources to this article to prove me wrong and demonstrate notability. Binksternet (talk) 16:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree: I don't think this article is neccesary. Almost all the information in this article can be found on the main Steinway & Sons article. --Karljoos (talk) 16:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I also agree. Unlike a Bosendorfer Imperial Concert Grand (which has 97 keys), there is really very little difference between a Steinway D-274 and other models of Steinway grands, except that it's bigger, and the builders sweat the details some more. It's not even a concert piano, which is selected by Steinway AFTER manufacture and bears the model name CD (Concert Department).THD3 (talk) 19:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

<=Okay, I see little need to keep this article. The references are too limited in scope to establish notability. We have a tiny little self-congratulatory article in the Worcester Telegram and Gazette, a documentary film that has every appearance of being a paid infomercial type of business deal, and an article in the Atlantic Monthly from 1982 that lovingly follows a single piano from lumber pile to finished product. Beyond these, we have sources from the manufacturer and a retailer. None of the sources make me think that the public at large knows very much about this or that Steinway model. Nothing here convinces me that people looking at a large Steinway concert grand think anything but "Steinway concert grand piano." I am deleting the content and making this page into a redirect. Binksternet (talk) 04:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Notability

Please visit again the discussion here an you will see why the article was deleted. I know you worked hard on it, and it isn't personal, but I don't think it can be moved back to the main Wikipedia. --Karljoos (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Read the discussion. The topic of the article is not relevant enough to have a separated article. Most of the info is already in the main Steinway and Sons article. The article was deleted and it can only be moved back if 1) you provide verifiable, reputable and independent sources (not promotional material from the company) 2) if you can prove that the topic is relevant 3) the relevant and sourced article has the "shape" of an encyclopedic article. In the meanwhile, please don't make redirects from articles to your personal pages. Thank you --Karljoos (talk) 15:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What you might want to consider (if you still want the content on the main WP) just add the information to the main article. Not only will that place "your" information on, but it will help expand the main article. I mean... isn't that what we're here for? (to expand WP) ⊥m93 ^talk. 22:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

New article

A new article is made: Steinway model D-274 (concert grand piano). Fanoftheworld (talk) 09:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

References

The reference for "More than 90% of concert grand pianos worldwide are Steinway's D-274s" ([1])is a brochure from the manufacturer of the piano (read the small print). It can't be considered an independet source. There are many examples of this kind of non-independent sources (most sources are by Steinway & Sons or by authorised dealers). I couldn't find any independet source regarding the percertage of Concert Grand Pianos built by Steinway... they (Steinway and Sons) say in the brochure given as source that 90% are by Steinway, but they can't be considered independent and objective. I will remove the info and the souce.--Karljoos (talk) 22:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

What small print on what page? The reference is the magazine "STEP Inside Design".[2] Fanoftheworld (talk) 19:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

None of the references mention the model number! This article is bullshit. Nobody who writes about Steinway grand pianos ever puts the model number in their text, so having this article about one Steinway model is just a fork of Steinway & Sons; another chance to promote pianos. I am deleting the content and redirecting, again, back to the parent article. Binksternet (talk) 13:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Which references? Remeber that only the model D-274 has the Stenway logo decorated on the right side of the piano. And remember that a Steinway concert grand piano always is D-274. Fanoftheworld (talk) 19:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You're right. I think the article should be blanked and redirected to the main Steinway article.--Karljoos (talk) 13:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

No he is not, but he has a little knowledge about the subject. – Only the model D-274 has the Stenway logo decorated on the right side of the piano, and a Steinway concert grand piano is always D-274. Fanoftheworld (talk) 19:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

My knowledge is not at issue; what is at issue is the lack of sources mentioning the model by name. This is not like the Imperial piano model, the one with extra keys, where sources frequently call it the Imperial Bösendorfer or Bösendorfer Imperial. Not one reliable source calls the concert Steinway piano the Model D or Model D-274. Binksternet (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, your knowledge is an issue. When you read the references you only look for the word "D-274". The D-274 is also known as "Steinway's concert grand piano" – D-274 is the only Steinway model, which is a concert grand piano. Furthermore, the look of the D-274 is different from all other Steinway models – one of the difference is that the D-274 has a Steinway logo decorated on the side. So there is no lack of references/sources. Fanoftheworld (talk) 20:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

If there is only one Steinway concert grand piano, then why is this article called the Steinway D-274? Why did you not create your fork as Steinway concert grand piano, currently a redirect to Steinway & Sons? I can share with you my guess: you know full well that this content you have added here is just a subset of Steinway & Sons, a subset of all pianos that that company makes. The public would have to be aware of the Model D or D-274 for this article title to exist. They are not: they just know Steinway, the brand. Binksternet (talk) 20:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The name of the article has been discussed here: User talk:Fanoftheworld#Steinway Model D-274.

"I can share with you my guess: you know full well that this content you have added here is just a subset of Steinway & Sons. a subset of all pianos that that company makes". Once again, read the references!!! The content of the article is about D-274 only. Example: In the Steinway & Sons article is written: "In ABC's Good Morning Texas on December 19, 2007, Steinway Artist Lola Astanova performed on a Stenway grand piano Tchaikovsky's Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy from The Nutcracker.". That is not written in the article for the D-274, because the pianist is not playing the Steinway concert grand piano D-274, although the host of "Good Morning Texas" calls it a concert grand piano. Fanoftheworld (talk) 20:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Exactly! The public has no idea what model Steinway grand piano is being played, and you have just given an example of why this article has no relevance, and why there is no cause to try and move this material to Steinway concert grand piano or similar. It is clear to me that you have no basis for an article on any one Steinway model. The article Steinway & Sons covers the subject handily. Binksternet (talk) 21:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Steinway makes worldwide 7 models of grand pianos but only one model (the D-274) is called "concert grand piano", there is absolutely no confusion about that. That one host makes one mistake, does not mean that it is difficult for the public. You generalize way too much. Fanoftheworld (talk) 01:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

You say "there is absolutely no confusion about that" but you have not yet shown this statement to be true using reliable sources to answer the need of WP:N. I may generalize too much, in your estimation, but I know when specifics are called for. I do not see any specifics showing that Steinway piano models, any of them, are notable beyond being Steinways. The situation is probably Steinway's fault; they have not made the effort to differentiate their models in the public's eye. It is as if Mercedes-Benz sold several sizes of car, with differing performance attributes, but Mercedes made no effort to tell the public that the cars were different, and people just said "I have a Mercedes", not "I have a Mercedes SLS". Perhaps Steinway, in the past, determined that they should make sure the public thought just as highly of the least Steinway piano model as they do the greatest—I don't know. At any rate, the effect is in place, and the public cannot tell the difference. All Steinway pianos will have to be covered at the Steinway & Sons article, until such a time as the public begins to perceive the difference. Binksternet (talk) 02:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Because an idiot has no idea what model Steinway grand piano is being played, the article should not be deleted. Maybe the person should read instead af write. Fanoftheworld (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

An editor I admire says "WP:RS talks; everything else walks." You must show notability per WP:N. The idiots want to see proof. Binksternet (talk) 22:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I just got done from taking links to the D-274 out of all the articles in which I found them. I also took out a Steinway & Sons template from the bottoms of articles about interurban streetcar lines in the Queens area(!)—somebody was overzealous. Binksternet (talk) 15:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Some corrections to the above said. Commonly there is a categorization for grands which runs as follows: a- baby grands (up to 179cm - sry for using ISO..), Steinway models S-155cm, L and O belonging to this category, b- "normal" grands or maybe sometimes named "conservatory grands" (used in pianists schools, "Konservatorien", german word, 180-220cm, Steinway types A-188cm and B-211cm belonging to this category), and "concert grands" - all grand pianos >220cm.

There are (!) other Steinway concert grands, as there are the "C" models coming from the german factory of Steinway in Hamburg - which to my knowledge have or had two designs - the elder one is 234cm, actual size is 227cm. They are extremely rare but they exist and are concert grands.

And (!) there are te precedessors of the 1884 introduced "D type"; the elder grands from Steinway which are concert grands also. I personally own a pre-D Steinway concert grand, length is 270cm. The concert grands precedessing the D type are heavier as after the introduction of the cast full frame (1875) it then was posible to decrease the amount of wood used to build the frame - the weight then (with the "Rim Design") decreased since 1884 (mdel D introduction) from >600kg to the actual 475 to 480 kg.

Some think the pre-D concert grands built 1875-1884 (yet with the heavy iron frame & weight, still with the heavy wooden base like a churchs roof structure.., without the Rim are the best ever built concert grands from Steinway. Anyway - the sound of a pre D model is more "bassy" than the brilliant slim D types normally show - but evaluation of sound quality is very subjective as all grand pianos sounds always are: the parts are fabricated to industrial methods - but the assermbly work is done by hand. And a lot of material for concert grands is wood - a natural material which varies.

If anybody tries to think that Steinway figures and classifications may be not always objective, he would have to read the book of Max Mathias, former chief technician at the Hamburg factory who describes a "concert grand" derivation of the B type (211cm) which was built "stronger" than the normal B type to fulfil concert pianists' expectations related to the hammer action. They named this special type B a "B concert grand".

Regards from a non-D-Steinway concert grand pianists bench.. ;-) - 170.56.58.148 (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

– Steinway's official American website says "Concert Grand" about the Model D (D-274) only.[3]

– Steinway's official German website says "Konzertflügel" (in English: "concert grand piano") about the D-274 (Model D) only.[4]

Therefore, I think, that Steinway manufactures only one concert grand piano, the D model. Peoplefromarizona (talk) 01:05, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

References

References needed???

If somebody think that this new article needs some references, then use the {{fact}} template or write here just below exactly what sentences you think need a third-party reference. I will look for the requested references.

If you think that the article needs other things, then write these too. Fanoftheworld (talk) 01:17, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

References that are needed are ones that say "D-274" or D274" specifically. Here are a few:

• (Polish language) "Zamek Książąt Pomorskich kupił steinwaya!", Gazeta Wyborcza Szczecin, December 27, 2007.

• "Zakupiony dla Zamku Steinway D-274, należący już do tej najwyższej klasy fortepianów koncertowych, nazywany rolls-roysem wśród instrumentów, dotychczasowe na pewno zdetronizuje." (Roughly translated by Google: "Purchased for the Castle Steinway D-274, belonging to the already top-class concert grand pianos, called the Rolls-Royce among the instruments, so far certainly zdetronizuje."

• (Polish language article, an update from the previous article) "Steinway na Zamku", Gazeta Wyborcza Szczecin, February 26, 2008.

• "Koncertowy fortepian steinway D-274 przyjechał wczoraj do Zamku Książąt Pomorskich z hamburskiej fabryki. To będzie najlepszy fortepian w Szczecinie. Po raz pierwszy ten rolls-royce wśród instrumentów zabrzmi publicznie 6 marca." (Roughly translated by Google: "Steinway concert grand piano D-274 arrived yesterday to the Castle of Pomeranian Dukes of Hamburg factory. This will be the best piano in Szczecin. On 6 March, for the first time, that Rolls-Royce among the instruments will be heard in public."

• (German language) Der Spiegel, Volume 43, Issues 32–35, 1989.

• "...einen Steinway D-274, eine Art Pullman-Ausführung, gleich am Premierenabend zu Kleinholz machen wollte, wuchtete, der Virtuose nahezu jedes Forte zum klirrenden Fortissimo hoch, gab Klangfülle als Lautstarke wieder und disqualifi-..." (Roughly translated by Google" "...wanted to make a Steinway D-274, a kind of Pullman version, right on the opening night into firewood, hauled, the virtuoso on almost any ringing forte fortissimo high sound volume was disqualified as a Loud again and..." This extract seems like the D-274 is being compared to a Pullman Company sleeping car, an American luxury rail accommodation in the 19th and 20th centuries.

• (French language) "Thierry Jam le 9 juillet Cathédrale Saint-Etienne", Hérault-Tribune, January 7, 2008.

• "Pianiste itinérant, Thierry Jam joue sur un piano à queue Steinway D. 274, qu'il aime promener d'églises en abbayes. Artiste polyvalent, il n'hésite pas à multiplier les formules pour satisfaire aux exigences des mélomanes, mais aussi pour en permettre l'accès à tout un chacun." (Roughly translated by Google: "Itinerant pianist Thierry Jam played on a Steinway grand piano, D. 274, he loves walking in abbeys churches. A versatile artist, he does not hesitate to step formulas to meet the requirements of music lovers, but also to allow access to everyone." This mention of the D-274 does not say anything specific about the instrument. Binksternet (talk) 16:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the references. There is a lot to read but I will look at it soon and try to find the requested references to the article. Fanoftheworld (talk) 02:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The Polish reporter, Ewa Podgajna, music critic from the 400,000 population city of Szczecin, compares the D-274 to a Rolls Royce in two successive newspaper articles. The German writer may be comparing the D-274 to a luxury sleeping car made by the Pullman Company, but the meaning is not absolutely clear. The French writer fails to describe the piano. These few references were all I could find. We now have to decide: are they important enough to establish notability? The French one doesn't help and the German one is unclear. One Polish music critic is enough? Binksternet (talk) 15:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I haven't read your links above yet, but I just want to say, that there are more articles about the Steinway concert grand piano (with the professional names "D-274" and "D") than above. See for example also this nine-part series in the New York Times following the construction of a Steinway concert grand piano: New York Times. Fanoftheworld (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Smaller than Others

It is notable that the Steinway's largest offering is smaller than that of all other Tier 1 piano makers. It's 8'11" long. I added this when the length of the "D" was discussed, complete with accurate primary source references. I hope the Steinway Cabal doesn't censor this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.24.250 (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed that the information is pertinent, but I think it doesn't belong, in detail, in the opening summary description. Instead, a general reference should appear there, with specifics set forth in one of the detailed sections below. I've reorganized along those lines, somewhat, er, extending the discussion at the same time. Curiously, in the brief time available to me at the moment I couldn't find a quick, disinterested reference to the Bösendorfer's extended keyboard; perhaps someone else can supply one. Drhoehl (talk) 02:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

"We appreciate a piano with our ears, and not a tape measure."[5] The D-274 is less space demanding than various of its competitors, but the D-274 is much more famous, much more appreciated and much more used in concerts and recordings than its competitors. Of course it is admirable that Steinway can make a concert grand that is both smaller and better than its competitors, but like the other editors of this article I don't think it is very notable and I don't think it belongs in the introduction of the article.

I hope that Steinway's competitor now does understand that size doesn't matter, because pianos are judged by their sound, touch etc. --JAL78 (talk) 00:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Larry Fine and "flagship"

I do not see where author Larry Fine calls the Model D the flagship of Steinway. I added a "failed verification" tag. Binksternet (talk) 17:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Page 119: "The model D, the concert grand, is the flagship of the Steinway line and the piano of choice for the overwhelming majority of concert pianists. It's too large for most plsaces other than the concert stage." As a side comment, I know there's some bad blood over this article, but please be sure that I am a disinterested party simply trying to repair this thing so that it can be viable. I agree that it's pretty "advertisey" as originally written, but I'd say that the underlying subject is unquestionable notable. No time to fix further; will try to come back later. Drhoehl (talk) 18:44, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

No bad blood... I just do not like rah-rah promotional tone in an article. Thanks for the quote by Fine—it was absolutely unavailable via Google books. Binksternet (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

"In popular culture" section

This section of the article bothers me; as far as I can see, everything links to YouTube clips and amounts to "look at this an you can see a Steinway D." Leaving aside issues of promotional tone, I have qualms, in part because of what I suspect is dubious copyright status; in part because I'm sure such links can come and go in the blink of an eye; and in part because much or all of this stuff is all cottage-industry-generated, not (at least legitimately) from commercial sources. I'm thinking that an improvement might be to substitute a list of a few recordings that specifically credit the Steinway D in their notes. Anybody else have any thoughts on the issue, particularly on the merits of YouTube clips as sources, before I start working to that end? Drhoehl (talk) 19:50, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Except for the Sword of Damocles hanging over the page, I approve of your proposed line of improvement. Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Never let it be said that I do anything in a hurry. I just followed through on what I planned back in March and replaced the "popular culture" section. I tried to design the list of recordings so that each would illustrate a different aspect of how these instruments are played in practice (four-hands, left hand alone, concerto, conventional solo; new age, blues, classical; etc.) rather than simply throw together something along the line of "here's a bunch of unassorted records of the D-274." I'm sure that better examples are out there, and I'd wholeheartedly endorse appropriate substitutions, but I'd urge those who follow not simply to lard the list down with duplicative entries. Drhoehl (talk) 19:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Removal of photos

I deleted four photographs from the gallery at the end of the article as follows:

• The Obama inauguration photo barely showed what might be a piano in the background--not a good image of the model D.
• The photo of Astanova and Vieira was better, but it still showed little of the piano, being principally of the women, not the instrument.
• The Wagner "D-274" couldn't be a D-274; Wagner died a year before the model was introduced. Liszt's description cited as a source simply refers to a Steinway "concert grand," presumably the model D's predecessor.
• The Chick Corea photo again did not show the instrument, just the performer.

That still leaves four photos, all pretty good depictions of the instrument in question. Drhoehl (talk) 02:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I just removed another from the body of the article; it purported to show Bruce Hornsby at a D-274. In fact, it showed Bruce Hornsby and not much else, and unlike the similar image of Helene Grimaud it did not tie into a reference in the text. At the same time, I moved the Grimaud image to the section in which her name appears. Drhoehl (talk) 19:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Introduction 2

The introduction says that "... although in recent years some high-profile artists have become defectors; Angela Hewitt, for example, has made widely publicised remarks favoring Fazioli instruments over the model D.". I think there really needs some references about the statements "in recent years" and "some high-profile artists have become defectors". An introduction contains the most important things about a subject. The sentence must be about many artists to be in the introduction. If some or few artists, including Angela Hewitt, play other brands, it is not something to mention in the introduction. Fanoftheworld (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough about needing a citiation; I just added one. A major factor getting this article into trouble was that it was too promotional in tone, and riffs on "Steinway is the choice of the immortals" fall squarely into that category unless we include something along the lines of "...but not all of them." The statement about Hewitt was designed to do that. Perhaps neither the "nearly everybody plays Steinway" nor the "some dissent" belong in the intro, truth be told, but as you know getting this article into what I hoped would be minimal shape to survive proposed deletion had to be something of a rush job, and there's still a lot of work to do to improve its neutrality and organization. I've been working on that ever since the end of the deletion debate, but it's still very much a work in progress. Thanks for pitching in to help! Drhoehl (talk) 19:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

You are right about the proposed deletion, you have been doing a very good job. But the reference added is not verifying the statements. The reference is about few pianists. Furthermore, some of the pianists mentioned in the article plays Steinway today, as the article also says – e.g. Garrick Ohlsson, who has made peace with Steinway. I have added a template to be fair to Steinway. Fanoftheworld (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, the article mentions the following by name as at least no longer exclusviely preferring the Steinway instrument: Louis Lortie, Angela Hewitt, Nikolai Demidenko, Herbie Hancock, Piers Lane, Yaara Tal, Andras Schiff, Valentina Lisitsa; it further indicates "Andre Watts, Claudio Arrau and Dave Brubeck jumped ship for Baldwin" before that company went bust, and it makes the general statement "Steinway has removed several stellar names from its list for disloyalty." Seems to me that's sufficient support for the proposition that "some high-profile artists" have defected. Drhoehl (talk) 20:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I think there has to be more references or a better reference if the sentence should be in the introduction. Of cource there are and will always be pianists who do not play Steinway pianos. To mention in the introduction that "... in recent years some high-profile artists have become defectors..." it has to be a bigger subject about the D-274. The Steinway Artist roster contains so far 1,500 pianists and the article is about around 10 pianists. Fanoftheworld (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Addings to the English article from the German article

Original chapters

I was invited some days ago to add the newly written WP-DE chapters (German) to history and design changes also back to the EN article. Voila - my rough "pre translation".. to polish and to implement.. DE:user:AxelKing in the german WP -- 84.190.253.215 (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

History

Yet before the German-born family emigrated to the United States, the founder Henry E. Steinway built a grand piano in 1836 (the so-called "kitchen grand"), which still exists in the Steinway Hall in New York City. Such grand pianos with a limited keyset of 6 or 6.5 octaves and double strings cannot be compared with a D concert grand piano related to their power.

Concert grand pianos of actual size are able to fill a concert hall with sound for 2,000 to 3,000 spectators. This began to be possible since the 1860s when grand pianos got harps or frames of cast iron to have enough strength/resistance to the increasing "pull strength" of the strings, which amounts to nearly 20 tons. The end form of a concert grand piano was founded in 1875 with the so-called "full frame", which also covers the pinblock completely. Such frames related to the patent of Alpheus Babcock could be found in the first Steinway square pianos since 1853, when the company's manufacturing started in New York City. These frames have a tuning stability, which also allows a private use of a grand piano off of a concert stage.

At the world exhibition celebrating the centennial of the US constitution in 1876 in Philadelphia there were several competitions, including a competition related to pianos. Two grand pianos with the above mentioned characteristics the Steinway company sent to the competition. These instruments first integrated all known elements of the actual concert grand pianos. Steinway had invented hardly anything of these elements by themselves – besides of the single-key mechanism, which was patented in 1871. But Henry E. Steinway and his sons were every time eager to integrate everything, which was found good for the piano quality.

This still-going-strong striving for quality was honored at the world exhibiton with the gold medal. Steinway won the medal against the mostly established competition of well known american piano fabricants like Chickering and Weber. The concert grand piano type, the direct precedessor of the D-274, is today known by the name "Centennial Concert Grand Piano". Yet also the old types of concert grand pianos, pinblock cover missing, still were partially build parallel until 1878.

The first step from the "Centennial" type to the actual D-274 was introduced in 1878 when the namings related to the old "style" numbers converted to type letters – A, B, C and D. These letters also today mark the types of the highest-class instruments. The technically unmodified "Centennial" type (former "style 4") got the letter "D" (today "D-270").

Introduction of the type D-274 of today design

Steinway Artist Daniel Barenboim, in the age of 11, plays a D-274 with the conductor Moshe Lustig and the Gadna symphony orchestra in Israel on August 1st, 1953

In 1884 the design of the "Centennial D" was modified. The base section of 17 tones of the Centennial type and its precedessors was enbroaded to the actual 20 bass keys. Yet four years in advance (1880) the corpus of laminated and glued maple wood was introduced with the smaller grand type "A", the still actual "rim" case: thin, very long strips of wooden leaves (maple), which were glued with hard-hardening glue to a fixture and then dried. With this manufacturing method the rim fabrication grew cheaper, there is some saving in wood use, which has to be stored and handled to an exact dry status over a long period of nearly three years. This was of great advantage in a time of huge demand for good pianos.

Further changes were slight length modifications. The very first "rim type" D concert grand pianos from 1884 to around 1895 are only 272 cm long. In 1936 the soundboard according to a patent of Paul Bilhuber was introduced, an "in-law" member of the Steinway family. In 1961 the Teflon bushings of the playing mechanism was introduced with the US built grand pianos – a modification to which the Hamburg manufacturing men kept distance, against much pressure from the New York based company. Pressure which they were able to resist only as the business figures of the Hamburg plant were much better than the New York ones. The teflon bushings soon caused some unidentified trouble with wrong sounds at special "tournaround seasons" spring, autumn. In 1982 they took the never-really-solved problems as a reason to stop the teflon bushings and substitute it with a "dry-grease fluid", which allowed Steinway to keep on with the "T" word – but they reintroduced the classic felt bushings.

If brilliance and power of the sound count, on large stages it must be a new concert grand piano also with Steinway D grand pianos. New instruments carry the sound in the treble very far, but after some years of use they begin to lack – like all rim-based designs do – the inner tension and then they cannot carry the sound as far. For this reason concert grands normally get substituted for stage use after five years. They will be sold, refurbished and led into the market of used grand pianos where they – ralted to the price of a new grand piano – are positioned often quite surprisingly low compared with the official price of a new one (125,000 Euro mid of 2010).

Private use of these concert grand pianos is seldom found as these pianos are very big and heavy. A concert grand piano also needs the space to sound well. In other cases the sound presseure would be "too much" – these "long Johns" can be extremely loud as the soundboard nearly covers an area of two square meters.

The share of D instruments in all built, Steinway grand pianos are around 5%. In comparison to other manufacturers of grand pianos (around 1-2%) it is a big figure. An explanation is found in the sophisticated marketing programmes of Steinway – the Steinway Artists programme and the Concert grand piano banks in New York City, London and Hamburg. On the US stages more than 90% of the concert grand pianos are Steinway D. Of the around 600,000 ever built Steinway instruments (2010) around 25,000 instruments are probably of the type D-274.

Of the heavier precedessor "Centennial D" only 424 instruments were built; maybe 30 still are known.

Revision by Textorus

1st attempt

I'm a good editor but not a musician, so some technical words and phrases are a little tricky to work with, depending on precisely what is meant. I've indicated the spots where I wasn't sure of your meaning with [brackets]. Otherwise, I've given these paragraphs a more natural feel and smoother flow in English - and hope I've not misconstrued what you meant in any given sentence. :o) Textorus (talk) 10:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

History

Yet before the German-born family emigrated to the United States, the founder, Henry E. Steinway, had built a grand piano in 1836 (the so-called "kitchen grand"), which today is preserved at Steinway Hall in New York City. Such grand pianos with a limited keyset of 6 or 6.5 octaves and double strings; they 'produce less volume of sound' than a D-type concert grand piano.

Concert grand pianos of full size are able to fill a concert hall with sound for 2,000 to 3,000 spectators. This was made possible in the 1860s when grand pianos were given harps or frames of cast iron to provide sufficient strength/resistance to meet the increasing "pull strength" of the strings, which amounts to nearly 20 tons. The final form of a concert grand piano appeared in 1875 with the so-called "full frame," which also covers the pinblock completely. Such frames, based on the patent of Alpheus Babcock, were found in the first Steinway square pianos produced in 1853, when the company's manufacturing started in New York City. These frames have a tuning stability [--meaning? --> the tuning lasts for a much longer while], which also allows for private use of a grand piano away from a concert stage.

At the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1876, there were several manufacturer's competitions, including a piano competition. The Steinway Company sent two grand pianos with the above-mentioned characteristics to the competition. These instruments first integrated 'all the elements found in modern' concert grand pianos. Steinway had invented few of these elements himself, other than the single-key mechanism, which was patented in 1871. But Steinway and his sons were eager to integrate all the latest elements, which markedly improved piano quality.

Their persistent striving for quality was honored at the world exhibition with the gold medal. Steinway won the competition against well-established, well-known American piano makers like Chickering and Weber. Steinway's concert grand piano, the direct precedessor of the D-274, is today known by the name "Centennial Concert Grand Piano." Yet the old types of concert grand pianos, missing a pinblock cover, were still produced until 1878. [--does this mean that Steinway and Sons were still producing these types, or other companies were? --AK-->Steinway set forth to produce parallely a type with uncovered pinblock, actually no other company produces grands without pinblock cover, the last to stop it was the Boesendorfer company in Vienna some years ago but their former grands had a better design to ensure tuning stability even with pinblock uncovered]

The first step from the "Centennial" type towards the D-274 was introduced in 1878 when the old "style" numbers were converted to "type" letters – A, B, C and D. Today, these letters still mark the types of the highest-class instruments. The technically unmodified "Centennial" type (former "style 4") got the letter "D" (today "D-270").

Development of the D-274

In 1884, the design of the "Centennial D" was modified. The base section of 17 tones of the Centennial type and its precedessors was broadened to 20 bass keys. Four years previously, in 1880, a [case --AK--> Ok] of laminated maple had been introduced with the smaller grand type "A," the modern "rim" case: very long, thin strips of maple were applied with high-adhesive glue to a surface and then dried. --AK--> no, the long strips of wood get glued together, then put on a fixture to clamp the "glued book" of leafs, and then let it dry i.e. the later rim is not glued to the fixture.., the single sheets are glued togehter.

In1884 the redesigned D type also got the laminated case. This manufacturing method made rim fabrication cheaper and used less wood, which has to be stored and handled to an exact degree of dryness over a period of nearly three years. This speedier production method was of great advantage in a time of huge demand for good pianos.

Further changes was a slight length modification. [--but you mention only one such length change; the rest of the paragraph is about other things, so this is not a good opening sentence here-- --AK--> [only one modiication to tell, the other isttold in the player piano chaper] I am not quite sure that this was the only legth modification.. <shy>] The very first "rim type" D concert grand pianos from 1884 to about 1895 were only 272 cm long. In 1936, a soundboard based on a patent of Paul Bilhuber, an "in-law" member of the Steinway family, was introduced. In 1961, Teflon bushings for the playing mechanism were incorporated into U.S.-built grand pianos – a modification that the piano makers at the Hamburg branch did not adopt, despite much pressure from the New York-based company. They were able to resist only because the [profits? sales?] --AK--> profits of the Hamburg plant were better than those of the New York factory. The Teflon bushings soon caused some unidentified trouble with distorted sounds in the "turnaround seasons" of spring and autumn. In 1982, the New York makers took the unsolved problems as a reason to stop using the Teflon bushings and replace them with reintroduced the classic felt bushings plus a dry-grease fluid made with Teflon particles which allowed Steinway to keep using the word Teflon [in their advertising --AK--> yes] – but [later? or at the same time? --AK--> at the same time] they

To provide brilliance and power of sound on large stages, a new concert grand piano is best, and this is true of Steinway D grand pianos also. New instruments carry the sound in the treble very far, but after some years of use they begin to lose some of the inner tension [of the strings? no, of the case which is also a "sounding" element], as all rim-based designs do, and then they cannot carry the sound as far. For this reason, concert grands normally get replaced after five years of stage use. Then they are refurbished and put into the market of used grand pianos, where they are often priced surprisingly low compared with the catalog price of a new one (125,000 Euros in mid-2010).

Because these concert grand pianos are very big and heavy, they are seldom found in private use. A concert grand piano also needs the space to produce good sound. In smaller rooms, the sound pressure would be too great [for comfort --AK--> yes OK]– these "long Johns" can be extremely loud, since the soundboard covers an area of nearly two square meters.

D instruments represent about 5% of all Steinway grand pianos produced, a significantly larger share of output than the 1-2% of other manufacturers of grand pianos. An explanation is found in the sophisticated marketing programmes of Steinway – the Steinway Artists program and the concert grand piano banks in New York City, London, and Hamburg. On U.S. stages, more than 90% of the concert grand pianos are Steinway D. Of around 600,000 Steinway instruments ever built (as of 2010), about 25,000 instruments are probably of the D-274 type.

Only 424 of the heavier precedessor "Centennial D" pianos were built; about 30 still are known to still exist.

Tuning stability is perfectly fine, although it should say a good tuning stability. It just means the piano holds its tuning, doesn't go out of tune quickly. I feel very unsure, though, about inner tension, which I can only find used as a term by very pretentious music critics to describe some nebulous and possibly non-existent quality of a composition - not the kind of thing that would be affected by the construction of the piano. I get the impression that what's being said here is that the aging piano becomes less resonant, kind of rubbery and soggy, and therefore not as loud. (It makes no logical sense that there would be less tension in the strings themselves, because then they'd be at a different pitch.) If "rim-type" means laminated rather than solid wood, then it perhaps makes sense that over time the material becomes less rigid - perhaps the glue absorbs moisture or something. I feel that the explanation of what "rim-type" construction is should be set against an explanation of what it isn't, i.e. an "as opposed to" phrase, but this is a pet hate I have with all articles in subject areas I don't fully understand. For instance, I don't know if solid wood is the alternative construction method, or even possible (did they used to bend it with steam, or what? --AK--> yes, like swiss skies to ride on snow are bent with steam) 213.122.17.213 (talk) 14:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the wording "inner tension" is tricky. It is also known for metal being pressed: the strength of pressed steel increases by being pressed, and then vibrations afterwards can "take out" the material tensions. It is the same with laminated wood: the shrinking characteristic of glued leafs will produce some inner tension in the compond material which first are usefull to carry on the sound but which will be decreased over some years. So "rim cases" have a little bit "tension wear" over the years caused by the music produced (=vibrations carried oer the case..) which is mainly thought as "contra productive" for stage use after a while, the sound will be dampened a little bit.

:-) THX for cooperation and polishing - --AK--> = AxelKing in the GER WP -- 84.190.236.230 (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

2nd attempt

Peoplefromarizona asked me to take a look at this again, and I've incorporated your (AK's) notes and a couple of tweaks by Ehrenkater. I still have one question, which I've put in brackets. It would be much easier to fine-tune this if we were in the same room and could simply talk it out . . . but maybe this will be good enough. Textorus (talk) 05:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

History

Even before the German-born family emigrated to the United States, the founder, Henry E. Steinway, had built a grand piano in 1836 (the so-called "kitchen grand"), which today is preserved at Steinway Hall in New York City. Such grand pianos with a limited keyset of 6 or 6.5 octaves and double strings produce less volume of sound than a D-type concert grand piano.

Concert grand pianos of full size are able to fill a concert hall with sound for 2,000 to 3,000 spectators. This was made possible in the 1860s when grand pianos were given harps or frames of cast iron to provide sufficient strength to resist the increasing "pull strength" of the strings, which amounts to nearly 20 tons. The final form of a concert grand piano appeared in 1875 with the so-called "full frame," which also covers the pinblock completely. Such frames, based on the patent of Alpheus Babcock, were found in the first Steinway square pianos produced in 1853, when the company's manufacturing started in New York City. These frames give the piano’s tuning more stability, because less than half of the pinblock surface draws water in case of humidity changes, and the free "wood lengths" between a tuning pin and the next fixing screw of the pinblock-to-frame are reduced drastically, compared with a cover-free pinblock.

AK: If a grand is used on stage it will get tuned normally directly before every concert. (Maybe in the intermediate break also..) So it doesn't matter so much if the piano has "tuning stability" over months. It has to have tuning stabilty over the 2 hours of the concert ;) But if I would have at home a piano which would need tuning every 2h or 2d or even 2 weeks I would grow very angry about my piano ;) Tuning produces costs (if you can't tune by yourself), in GER actually 80-120 EU i.e. and it needs normally around one working hour (done by experienced tuners). For private use tuning takes place two or maybe four times a year, depending on the climate, the stability of temperature, stability of air humidity and the intensity of use. For this purpose there exist air conditioners under the "stomach" of a grand - I own one, "Dampp Chaser" system. Tuning is lost sligthly (regarded micrometrically) with every note played and with every degree of temperature change and/or each percent of humidity change. Also at the end of a phase-not-being-tuned the sound is expected to sound quite OK.. That's the background on the issue "tuning stabilty" ;) Me personally , I would not like to buy a piano with a low tuning stability - or I would decide to learn tuning by myself.. I once was warned about old concert grands with low tuning stability - you should expect to get a nice piece of old furniture but no really usable piano for a private living room, as you would have to keep the tuners tools at hand with an old concert grand - the more tension the strings do have, the less is tuning stabilty, and if the pinblock is uncovered and/or the frame of "sub optimal " design.. - pheew: lots of tuning issues.. With a "Centennial grand" type, pinblock covered, this issue is reduced drastically: less than half of the pinblock surface draws water in case of humidity changes, and the free "wood lengths" between a tuning pin and the next fixing screw of the pinblock-to-frame is reduced drastically, compared with a cover-free pinblock. But it is OK to eliminate this sentence - a concert grand for a real private use is extremely seldom found; the people who own a concert grand privately normaly are concert pianists who prefer to have a similar instrument at home to practice - like the stage pianos they use. --> AK - Again THX for your very good cooperation, Textorus & Ehrenkater.

Well, I just learned a lot from what you said there. I've modified the last sentence above with part of your explanation, see what you think. Glad I could be of help. Textorus (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Everything now loks fine IMHO. Now lift it to the open sun deck, I would like to say - and THX again. Nice work.

uhhmm.. There is new biographic stuff derived from the same heap of Books I read.. about Theodore, eldest son of Henry E. St. and technical master mind, in WP-DE. Want to get the stuff also roughly in EN? ;-) --AK-- 84.190.254.233 (talk) 00:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

uhm back again, I now opened a WP EN account with a +g added (AxelKingg, double g) as the WP EN did not accept my WP DE name. This will have the advantage to be adressed in my user talk area for lots of piano stuff eventually ;-) -- AxelKingg (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

At the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1876, there were several manufacturer's competitions, including a piano competition. The Steinway Company sent two grand pianos with the above-mentioned characteristics to the competition. These instruments first integrated all the elements found in modern concert grand pianos. Steinway had invented few of these elements himself, other than the single-key mechanism, which was patented in 1871. But Steinway and his sons were eager to include all the latest developments of piano construction, which markedly improved piano quality.

Their determined pursuit of quality was rewarded at the world exhibition with a gold medal. Steinway won the competition against several established, well-known American piano makers like Chickering and Weber. Steinway's concert grand piano, the direct precedessor of the D-274, is today known by the name "Centennial Concert Grand Piano." --> AK: please not so long, "Centennial grand" or "Centennial grand piano" should be enough. in circles of piano players it is simply "grand", not "grand piano". ;-) <-- Yet Steinway continued to produce the older type of concert grand pianos, missing a pinblock cover, until 1878.

The first step from the "Centennial" type towards the D-274 was introduced in 1878 when the old style numbers were converted to type letters – A, B, C and D. Today, these letters still mark the types of the highest-class instruments. The technically unmodified "Centennial" type (former "style 4") got the letter D ("Centennial D", or today "D-270").

Development of the D-274

In 1884, the design of the "Centennial D" was modified. The 17-tone base section of the Centennial type and its precedessors was broadened to 20 bass keys. Four years previously, in 1880, a case of laminated maple had been introduced with the smaller grand type "A," creating the modern "rim" case: very long, thin strips of maple were clamped together with high-adhesive glue between the layers and then allowed to dry.

This process made rim fabrication cheaper and used less wood, which has to be stored and brought to an exact degree of dryness over a period of nearly three years. This speedier production method was of great advantage in a time of huge demand for good pianos. In1884 the redesigned D type also got the laminated case.

Over the years, other innovations followed. The very first "rim type" D concert grand pianos from 1884 to about 1895 were only 272 cm (107 in) long. In 1936, a soundboard based on a patent of Paul Bilhuber, an "in-law" member of the Steinway family, was introduced. In 1961, Teflon bushings for the playing mechanism were incorporated into U.S.-built grand pianos – a modification that the piano makers at the Hamburg branch did not adopt, despite much pressure from the New York-based company. They were able to resist only because the profits of the Hamburg plant were better than those of the New York factory.

The Teflon bushings soon caused some unidentified trouble with distorted sounds in the "turnaround seasons" of spring and autumn. In 1982, the New York makers took the unsolved problems as a reason to stop using the Teflon bushings and reintroduce the classic felt bushings, plus a dry-grease fluid made with Teflon particles, which allowed Steinway to keep using the word Teflon in their advertising.

To provide brilliance and power of sound on large stages, a new concert grand piano is best, and this is true of Steinway D grand pianos also. New instruments carry the sound in the treble very far, but after some years of use the case begins to lose some of its inner tension, as all rim-based designs do, and then they cannot carry the sound as far. For this reason, concert grands normally get replaced after five years of stage use. Then they are refurbished and put on the market as used grand pianos, where they are often priced surprisingly low compared with the catalog price of a new one (125,000 Euros in mid-2010).

Because these concert grand pianos are very big and heavy, they are seldom found in private use. A concert grand piano also needs the space to produce good sound. In smaller rooms, the sound pressure would be too great for comfort – these "long Johns" can be extremely loud, since the soundboard covers an area of nearly two square meters.

D instruments represent about 5% of all Steinway grand pianos produced, a significantly larger share of output than the 1-2% of other manufacturers of grand pianos. An explanation is found in the sophisticated marketing programmes of Steinway – the Steinway Artists program and the concert grand piano banks in New York City, London, and Hamburg. On U.S. stages, more than 90% of the concert grand pianos are Steinway D. Of around 600,000 Steinway instruments ever built (as of 2010), about 25,000 instruments are probably of the D-274 type.

Only 424 of the heavier precedessor "Centennial D" pianos were built; about 30 are still known to exist.

A few more tweaks

History

Even before the German-born family emigrated to the United States, the founder, Henry E. Steinway, had built a grand piano in 1836 (the so-called "kitchen grand"), which is today preserved at Steinway Hall in New York City. Such grand pianos, with a limited keyset of only 6 or 6.5 octaves and double stringed, are not comparable in terms of power with the D-type concert grand piano.

Concert grand pianos of today's size have the capability to fill with sound a concert hall for an audience of 2,000 to 3,000. This was first made possible in the 1860s when grand pianos were given frames of cast iron to enable them to withstand the ever-increasing stress created by the vibrating strings. The final form of the concert grand piano appeared in 1875 with the so-called "full frame", which completely covers the pinblock. Such a frame was already found in the first Steinway square pianos produced in 1853, when the company started manufacturing in New York City. These frames achieve a stability of tuning which also makes possible the private use of a grand piano away from a concert stage.

At the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1876, there were several manufacturers' competitions, including a piano competition. The Steinway Company sent two grand pianos with the above-mentioned characteristics to the competition. These instruments first integrated all the attributes of modern concert grand pianos. Steinway had invented hardly any of these features himself, apart from the single-key mechanism, which he had patented in 1871. But Steinway and his sons were eager to integrate all beneficial discoveries in their instruments.

Their endeavours were honored at the Exposition with the gold medal, which Steinway won in competition against well-established, well-known American piano makers like Chickering and Weber. The prize piano design, the direct precedessor of the D-274, is today known by the name "Centennial Concert Grand Piano". Yet the old types of concert grand pianos, without a pinblock cover, were still produced in parallel until 1878.

The first step from the "Centennial" type towards today's D-274 was made in 1878 when the old "style" numbers were renamed using letters A, B, C and D. Today, these letters are still used as a framework for type marks of high-class instruments. The technically unmodified "Centennial" type (former "style 4") acquired the letter "D" (today "D-270").

Ehrenkater (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Now in the article

I have now copied and added the 2nd attempt to the article, and added the references, the sources, and some intern links. I hope averybody agree, that it can be done now. I recommend, that further edits will be made in the article and not in the chapters here on the talk/discussion page. --Peoplefromarizona (talk) 00:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

References

Was it and is it a D-274?

I'll spend some time on this page, but my first reaction is to the "-274" applied to the model designation. It may now be called "D-274" in Europe, but the piano was originally conceived and built in New York. It was a 'D', still is a 'D', and it seems downright clumsy to replace the original model designation with an ad hoc name. Joelthesecond (talk) 16:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just a comment or two: I've seen, that Steinway calls it "D", "Model D" and "D-274". The name of the article is with the "-274". I think you can call it all three things.

The article starts "D-274 (or D) is the model name of a concert grand piano...", so I don't see any problem by calling the piano both "D" and "D-274". By calling it "D-274" you will probably satisfy both English and German readers, so maybe "D-274" is the best.

By the way: "Model D" and "D" are the names of the American pianos, that are sold in the United States only. "D-274" is the name of the German pianos – and the German pianos are sold all over the world. Therefore, the piano is called "D-274" the most. --Peoplefromarizona (talk) 20:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The reason that we can't call it a D-274 for this article is that the 'D'

• Was originally called a 'D' by the designer and manufacturer
• Continued to be called a 'D' for a century (it may be stupid of us Americans not to have adopted the metric system, but "274" would have meant nothing to the principal manufacturer, i.e., Steinway in New York)
• Is to this day called a 'D' by the New York company
• Has only recently been called a "D-274" in Europe (truth be told, this is my surmise)

I have no problem saying that the 'D' is called the "D-274" in Europe, but to say that an 1880s 'D', or a 1910 'D', or a 1965 'D' is a D-274 is like saying that the original Ford was a Taurus. Joelthesecond (talk) 13:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"I have no problem saying that the 'D' is called the "D-274" in Europe..." – that is also fine with me.

By the way, according to an article "The market is loosely divided into two sales areas: the New York Steinway factory which supplies North and South America, and the Hamburg Steinway factory which supplies the rest of the world."[6]. Wouldn't it be more correct to say, that "the piano called 'D' in North and South America and called 'D-274' in the rest of the world..." or "'D-274' is called 'D' in North and South America"? --Peoplefromarizona (talk) 19:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

But the 'D' this article addresses isn't just the 'D' now, one from this or that market area; this is about the 'D' throughout its history. "D-274" is a recently coined name. It has nothing to do with markets, and everything to do with its name given by its manufacturer. When was the first use of the term D-274? I know not in the 1800s, and speculate not until the 1980s or later. A new name cannot be retroactive for an entry in an encyclopedia! Or is this article only about the Hamburg D-274 as it is currently manufactured and marketed? If so, the article doesn't even belong in Wikipedia. Joelthesecond (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

– "It has nothing to do with markets..." – It has a lot to do with markets: "Model D" and "D" are the names of the Steinway concert grand pianos manufactured in New York, which are sold in North and South America only. "D-274" is the name of the Steinway concert grand pianos manufactured in Hamburg, which are sold all over the world with the exception of North and South America. Therefore, the Steinway concert grand pianos are called "D-274" in most countries and by most people. For example, in Japan the Steinway concert grand pianos are known as "D-274", because in Japan you can buy Steinway concert grand pianos from the German manufactury only.

– "When was the first use of the term D-274?" – I have no idea, but it is the name used by Steinway's factory in Hamburg.[7]

– "Or is this article only about the Hamburg D-274..." – The article is about Steinway's concert grand pianos manufactured at both Steinway's factories. The differences between the concert grand pianos manufactured at the New York factory and the concert grand pianos manufactured at the Hamburg factury are too little to have two articles.

"If so, the article doesn't even belong in Wikipedia." – The article belong in Wikipedia, because it is about the world's most played concert grand pianos, and because it is about the world's most famous concert grand pianos. --Peoplefromarizona (talk) 06:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I added NPOV tag

This article, which reads like a marketing brochure, mentions several times how "big" this piano is. Yet when I put in a neutral statement about how the D is smaller than any other high-end piano maker's flagship model, with accurate primary source references, the Steinway Army quickly swoops in and removes it, saying "You Don't Meaasure Pianos with a Tape Measure" while going on and on about how "BIG" the "D" is.

I'm sorry your precious fetish item doesn't measure up, but facts are facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.24.250 (talk) 15:54, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I perused the article, and--without knowing a great deal about the object in question--the article seems very neutral.

For instance, the article begins by explaining that the D-274 "is the flagship of the Steinway line,[3] although it is by no means the largest concert grand in regular use." The section about its size concludes with this paragraph: "Notwithstanding the durable success of its design, the not-quite-nine-foot D-274 is actually smaller than various of its competitors. The largest concert grands from Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Fazioli, and nearly every other top-end piano exceed it in length: Yamaha's flagship model is 9'0"[7], Bösendorfer's Imperial is 9'6" [8], and Fazioli's is 10'6" [9]. The Bösendorfer instrument also features a keyboard spanning an extra half octave."

Unless you have specific examples of how this article violates NPOV, I'll remove the tag. --FeldBum (talk) 16:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

"We appreciate a piano with our ears, and not a tape measure."[8] The D-274 is less space demanding than various of its competitors, but the D-274 is much more famous, much more appreciated and much more used in concerts and recordings than its competitors. Of course it is admirable that Steinway can make a concert grand that is both smaller and better than its competitors, but like the other editors of this article I don't think it is very notable and I don't think it belongs in the introduction of the article.

I hope that Steinway's competitor now does understand that size doesn't matter, because pianos are judged by their sound, touch etc. --JAL78 (talk) 00:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I RE-ADDED NPOV TAG

Once again, someone edited this article to talk about how "BIG" this piano is and how it's "not suited for domestic use" because it's so BIG.

Fact is, it's smaller than the concert grands from Yamaha, Fazioli, Bosendofer, Blunther, Kawai, and nearly everyone else! BUT FOR SOME REASON WHEN I MENTION THIS INTERESTING FACT, with first-source REFERENCES, it's edited out.

SHAME ON YOU FOR MAKING WIKIPEDIA INTO an ADVERTISING BROCHURE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.24.250 (talk) 03:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

As I already have written twice[9][10] to you on this talk page and as other users have written to you on this talk page and in the article history page size is not a very interesting fact. Didn't you read that User:Joelthesecond finds your fact "idiotic". And by the way, your fact about the size of D-274 is still in the article.[11] --JAL78 (talk) 05:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

This article is not so bad as to require an NPOV tag at the top. The recent trimming has helped, anyway. I don't really see any actionable problem that we can fix. The NPOV tag should be removed. Binksternet (talk) 06:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Misinformation

The Model 'D' received a laminated rim before 1884. I own a Model 'D' manufactured between 1881 and 1883 (it received its serial number in 1883) that has a laminated rim.

I don't yet know what to do with that with respect to the article, but I thought I'd mention it.Joelthesecond (talk) 16:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

THX Joel 2nd, that's an important information and has very much to do with the subject. As the design changes "dropped in" slightly and were installed sometimes "byte by byte", there exist some "special transient" models. Tthere is a knowledge that in the "preparing phase" of the D-274 design (20 bass notes) also some of the last precedessors , the D-270 "Centennial" concert grands (17 bass notes), once got the continuous rim before 1884, patd. 1878/80 and which was first produced for the new Model A type 6ft. plus. These instruments are called "Rim Centennials" by the Steinway historians. I know of one other "Rim centennial". This instrument is mentioned in the well known book of Perri Knize, "Grand Obsession". As the edge to the pianist's right side in a rim grand is a round one (instead of a "sharp" edge with the non-contigouos rim but a "built corner"), there should also be a little modification to the "centennial" plate or frame.. , to have the resp. edge rounded. I would be VERY interested in a photograph of this "inner edge". Can you please email one photograph to b.beckschwarte@web.de? Thank you so much! Greetings from a centennial owner (early one, #35.xxx from 1877) to a centennial owner. These grands produce a phantastic sound..<pheew> .. ;-) And BTW yet to decide, whether the introduction of the rim for the biggest grands ca. in 1882/83 (for all centennials? for some "test examples" ? who knows? ) would need a correction in the article? Best regards AxelKing (talk) 11:26, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Picture

I've added the picture File:Steinway & Sons concert grand piano, model D-274, manufactured at Steinway's factory in Hamburg, Germany.png because it is a Steinway D-274 and the article is about Steinway D-274 and Steinway D. The picture is free content. See Free content:

"Free content encompasses all works in the public domain and also those copyrighted works whose licenses honor and uphold the freedoms mentioned above." and above it says: "Free content, or free information, is any kind of functional work, artwork, or other creative content that meets the definition of a free cultural work. A free cultural work is one which has no significant legal restriction on people's freedom:

- to use the content and benefit from using it,

- to study the content and apply what is learned,

- to make and distribute copies of the content,

- to change and improve the content and distribute these derivative works."

File:Steinway & Sons concert grand piano, model D-274, manufactured at Steinway's factory in Hamburg, Germany.png is free content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Upwherewebelong (talk • contribs) 23:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Upwherewebelong (talk · contribs) has been blocked as another sock of Fanoftheworld (talk · contribs), the creator of the image they are trying to promote. --Deskford (talk) 15:40, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Brochure Writing

Talk about a design being "perfected?" Fazioli and Bosendorfer might disagree. Telling us about all the family relationships of the developers instead of the development itself? Do we need to know a portrait photograph is by a "photographer?" Who is "noted"? As if his notability relates to the importance of Steinway's invention, the D, somehow? Do we need to praise Steinway for being "mindful of excellence?" Did they really use an "attractive veneer" to cover the open pin block? (If it was so attractive, how was its elimination a benefit?) Are terms "violent pedalling" which apparently can accompany "violent playing" needed? Would it not suffice to say the new pedals stood up to normal use?

"These and other improvements remarkably enhanced the performance, power and brilliance of the new Steinway 'D', enabling it to fill ever-expanding concert venues with sufficient sound." Tell me this didn't come from a brochure. And note that two of the four improvements (sturdiness of the pedals, ease of manufacture of the pin block) probably had no audible effect on sound.

The article currently claims the larger percentage of Steinway output devoted to the concert hall model, than is the case for other manufacturers, is due to "excellence." If there is a factual difference in excellence, please cite it, otherwise this description should be eliminated. It also refers to the idea of putting a bunch of pianos in a city as "sophisticated." Actually just sounds like a large manufacturer cementing in an advantage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.2.206 (talk) 04:58, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

News ...

There is a new article in the german Wikipedia, regarding the "Genealogy of Steinway Grands"... the technical development starting in 1856, ending in 2010, mainly acc. to the "Roy Kehl Bible", added by other sources.

Want to have this in english also...?... I'd support this acc. to this article by a "pre english wording" in it's discussion page - to be finalized by english speakers. Want to have this, to support and participate? - AxelKing (talk) 23:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

de:Genealogie_der_Steinway-Flügel

Initial chapter:

Introduction, history

In their first three years Steinway & Sons, fabricated squares solely. These were very common in the U.S. and maintained their market position much longer than in Europe where they tended to disappear around 1855. They were replaced by the upright pianos. Square pianos had sizes and properties, such as triple stringing, in the U.S. which were never available in Europe. Squares faded away in the U.S. around 1900 where Steinway & Sons made their last ones in 1888 and sold the final five from stock in 1890.

The first grand pianos were produced in 1856 and were concert grand size (240 cm plus, in this case ca. 248 cm). These were derived from the design of the period’s leading french manufacturer Erard, Paris, whose grands were played by world renowned pianists Franz Liszt as he toured western Europe, or, in case of Louis Moreau Gottschalk took with him to the Americas.

The grand designs received intense modifications and were made better and better by the "two Henrys", father Henry Engelhard Steinway and his immensely technically talented third son Henry Jr.. So the grand design was developed quickly from the Erard sources. One item the Steinway men changed immediately was the one-piece cast plate which the Erard grands got much later.

Henry Steinway Jr. is known as the father of the modern grand piano, despite dying at the very young age of 35 in 1865.

In 1859, Henry and his father designed starting pianos below concert grand size, the so called “parlor grand" ca. 220 cm, intended for the upcoming upper middle class whose salons or parlors were the center of family and social life. These grands were the predecessors of the later "C" named sizes.

Some time later, the concert grand got the letter identification “D". Earlier Steinway identifications were named "styles", which were a mixup of size indications and embellishment denominations, and are nearly useless and potentially misleading in our modern times.

Henry’s eldest brother Theodore was urged to come to New York City to help his family.

The main developments under his technical leadership were the so called "full panzer plate" (german "Vollpanzer”), i.e. the cast plate to cover the pinblock and protect it against damages and to stabilize it, the improved tubular action mechanism and the "duplex scale” to enrich the overtones. This latter development which was done in colaboration with the german physicist Hermann von Helmholtz. Other developments were the "Sostenuto” pedal, a french invention which was improved by the youngest brother Albert Steinway, as well as the introduction in March 1875 of the pilot screws which allowed a simpler mechanism to separate the keys from the mechanism built above.

These developments resulted in the famous grand named “Centennial Concert Grand" whose two first items were ready by Christmas 1875 (according to the William Steinway Diary). They were intended to be presented at the Centennial Exhibition 1876 in Philadelphia, a world fair to celebrate the U.S. constitution written and declared one hundred years before.

Shortly after the fair in 1878 the Steinway & Sons comp. presented the "B" (size approximately 211 cm) and the "A” models (first size approx. 182 cm) - two smaller sizes of grands with same technical conceptions such as covered pinblock, duplex scale, new mechanism, as well as with a new system of case building, the so called "rim”.

This construction method – well known in the furniture industry - consists of thin leafs of wood glued together and dried after clamping on a fixture known as a form. Theo Steinway had adopted this method to decrease scrap and to save costs.The cases thus built also proved to have good acoustic properties.

With the "A" and "B” types a whole renewal of the denominations started, the parlor grands were named "C” and the concert grands "D”.

The conversion of the bigger grands from the former "constructed case" to the "rim system” took place in 1880.

However, the C grands were still an old design from the “two Henrys" – and Theodore, who was the sole chief technician, did not like the design because of its huge manufacturing costs. Theo was always eager to offer cheaper pianos, both grands and uprights. When he was still in Germany (until 1865) and wrote letters to his brothers, we can see the them arguing and fighting about piano design and competing over who was the better, who was right or wrong. Theo’s steady aim was to increase Steinway’s market position by offering cheaper pianos but brother William did not hold a high opinion on his brother’s business acumen. When Theo came to NYC in 1865 he brought with him several piano designs – and some people from his small Brunswick factory who were experts in manufacturing uprights and in mechanical engineering.

With the consent of his younger brother William, the main shareholder after their father had died in 1871, Theo started to convert the entire Steinway piano design. The old designs of the "two Henrys" were to disappear. Theo converted the old parlor grand design to the full plate (1879), to the rim (1880) and even enlarged the scale (220 to 222 cm in 1882), but still the parlor grand had 85 keys only, and the solution in the end was another one – to shorten the design of a completely new concert grand - the “D” size Theo was working on.

Theo worked on the existing Centennial D and changed a lot, made the beast lighter, slimmer, and also changed the old symmetrical layout of the string fields, formerly 17-18-18-18-17, to 20 bass keys. The Centennial D is also remarkable in that beneath of 17 bass keys also the next six undercrossing tenor keys using copper-wound strings, a property which was astonishing and found hardly anywhere else. Theo changed this, freed the tenor notes from copper, enlarged the bass section to 20 keys, and made the whole big beast lighter and lighter. The huge cast plate – the maybe biggest single item in all of piano history - was completely renewed and became lighter, but its acoustic qualities were retained. In the end he nearly saved 200 Kilograms of weight, and up until modern times this design, nearly unchanged for more than 130 years, is the lightest concert grand of all. This property favours the handling of a grand on stage.

Then a lot of tables might follow, years and new development, changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AxelKing (talk • contribs) 23:17, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Olga Samaroff and company policy

It says Olga Samaroff bought one of these pianos herself, which makes perfect sense – she was a fine pianist, and was obviously not short of money since she later also bought a better place to play it. BUT it says the reason she bought it was that Steinway company policy would otherwise have forced her to make one of her recordings on a smaller instrument.

What policy was this? Why would Steinway have attempted to exclude their best instruments? TooManyFingers (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)