Talk:Stenkil

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Untitled

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I reverted Berig's edit of the section I added. Everything is relative but I do not consider the sources to be rare in this particular case. Ragnvald Ulfsson's family relations are mentioned in at least three icelandic sagas (not counting Hervarar saga). None mention him as the father to Stenkil. This is odd because you would have expected them to mention that while talking about Ragnvalds family if it was true that his son became king. Furthermore, Hervarar saga does not mention that Stenkil's father was a jarl which Ragnvald Ulfsson was, only that Stenkil was high-born. Titles as king and jarl is not something the icelandic sagas forget to mention. The claim that Ragnvald the Old and Ragnvald Ulfsson is the same person is very weak and it should be pointed out. Scholars know that the claim is very weak and do not forget to point out that it is basically just a guess (a hypothesis). However, as far as I know has no scholar bothered to dispute the claim, so it is often carelessly treated as a fact in less academic litterature. But Wikpedia should not make the same mistake by toning down the content of the text I added.

Alright, I can see your point. However, would you care to give me the names of the additional three sagas that talk of Ragvald Ulfsson? I would like to expand his article in the future.--Berig 17:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Undid revision 619872067 by SergeWoodzing

Latest comment: 10 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

The name I added is the actual name in Old Norse. Stenkil is an anglicization. SergeWoodzing's comment about it being unsourced is ridiculous, the Old Norse text containing the information is already on the page in the quote from Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks. People whose first language is English who encounter Stenkil by way of Victorian histories are most likely to use the anglicization. Those familiar with modern historical works, or with the sagas in the original or in translations made in the last 50 years, are more likely to know the Old Norse version. There is value in including both versions of the name. --Gunnora (talk) 18:32, 8 August 2014 (UTC)-----Gunnora (talk) 18:32, 8 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

The authentic anglicization (genuine English exonym) for Stenkil is Steinchetel. Stenkil is Swedish, not English. The man is virtually unknown in English literature. In any case, "Steinkell inn gamli Rǫgnvaldsson" is your own construction (not to say contraption, grammatically faked as it is) and not an authentic name. Furthermore there is no reliable evidence whatsoever anywhere that this king was the son of any Reginald/Ragvald/Ragnvald/Rǫgnvald. Hervarar is a legend, not a reliable source for name formats of an actual person. You will need to cite an academic source with a page number to support your invention "Steinkell inn gamli Rǫgnvaldsson", and until you do, I will keep removing that "Old Norse" of yours. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

If your so-called justification for removing the Old Norse spelling of the name is because Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks is fictional, then you should delete the whole farking article, since Hervarar saga is the major source of information about these names. Upon further checking, you are correct that inn gamli belongs to the father, which makes the guy's name Steinkell son Rǫgnvalds ins gamla. Aside from the evidence of Hervarar saga, how about, "because the noted expert on Old Norse bynames, E. H. Lind, says so" (Col. 100 s.n. Gamli. Norsk-Isländska Personbinamn från Medeltiden. Uppsala: 1920-21). Old Norse names have standard normalizations, which are understood among everyone studying Old Norse language or literature. --Gunnora (talk) 17:18, 10 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

First, Stenkil is, as Serge points out, not an anglicisation, but the modern Swedish name, and seems to be the version that is the most common (even in English). Second, in the addition to the Hervarar saga, "inn gamli" refers to his father Ragnvald, not Stenkil himself. However, as weak a source as the addition is (I believe it contradicts Adam of Bremen's admittedly confused claims about Stenkil's kinship with king Emund), it is a primary source, and it would not be in any way wrong to have the Norse spelling of the name in the article.

Andejons (talk) 12:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Andejons, did you really intend to legitimize the unsubstantiated claim that King Stenkil was the son of a Reginald/Ragvald/Ragnvald/Rǫgnvald, which I believe otherwise is considered a non-fact? Stenkil is generally considered a historical person, that Reginald/Ragvald/Ragnvald/Rǫgnvald as his father is not. Now English Wikipedia says that there is a legitimate name form for Stenkil that confirms his paternity. Do we want that? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:21, 10 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

No, I'm in full agreement with what you say; I was perhaps a bit vague earlier. The Norse spelling "Steinkell" is OK, but the patronymic is from a weak source, and should not be presented as his actual name. Furthermore, I get no hits when searching for "Steinkell son Rǫgnvald" at the Hathi trust, and likewise in Google books, and general Google.

Gunnora: sometimes historians, in particular those working with early medieval Sweden, has to accept the fact that some sources are simply too far removed in time to be taken as entirely trustworthy.

Andejons (talk) 19:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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