Talk:Steve Clarke

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How to count a penalty shootout

This has been discussed many times before at WP:FOOTY, and the consensus has always been to record them as draws. That reflects what the score was at the end of the match. FIFA have explicitly stated when calculating their world rankings that "To ensure that the formula is not only fair but also simple, matches that are decided by a penalty shoot-out (which are considered draws under normal rules) result in the winning team receiving two points and the losing team one point." [1] Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:26, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

This is also the method used by Soccerbase [2] when recording manager stats.--Egghead06 (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Taken directly from a document issued by FIFA themselves ([3]): "To ensure that the formula is not only fair but also simple, matches that are decided by a penalty shoot-out (which are considered draws under normal rules)" (emphasis mine) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah, that's the same link posted above - apologies :-S -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:43, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Another site: [4] - "Penalty kick shootouts do not play any part in determining the result of a match. When the teams are level in goals scored at the end of extra-time play, the result is recorded as a draw no matter what happens in the penalty kick shootout. Penalty kick shootout goals are scored after match play has concluded, not during match play." -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Well exactly. We don't count "goals" scored in a penalty shootout as goals in player statistical tallies either. A penalty shootout is just not part of the normal game. It's a tiebreaker, like the away goals rule or tossing a coin. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Scotland won the game. Absolutely baffling that I have been unable to amend the result to say just that. Craig5991 (talk) 08:57, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

A penalty shootout isn’t part of the normal game? It’s a method used at the end of every match that cannot be separated after 120 minutes to identify a victor. Who progressed to the final? Scotland. Did Israel achieve anything on Thursday night? Did they make it to a final? No. They didn’t. Because they lost the match in a normal set of circumstances. Craig5991 (talk) 08:59, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I’ll continue to let you edit pages as you see fit, but it’s clear you knowledge of football is substandard and rather than being directly involved in the sport you sit back in your armchairs to judge. It’s disappointing because it doesn’t reflect true statistics, but if you want to feel high and powerful over a wiki page, then so be it. Craig5991 (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia operates on consensus. There is much on Wikipedia I don’t agree with but consensus says otherwise. Consensus says draws at full-time are draws regardless of penalties. You’re only way forward is to go with consensus or campaign to change it. Editing Steve Clarke’s article to your view is never going to end well.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:26, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

It’s not “my view” it’s a general view. They do say don’t believe everything you read on Wikipedia. This is a prime example. Scotland won the game. That’s not a view. That’s a fact. Craig5991 (talk) 09:30, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I get the feeling this is like talking to a brick wall, but here we go anyway: the 2020–21 Scottish League Cup group stage is currently being played. When a game is level after 90 minutes each team is awarded one point like a normal draw, but they then have a penalty shootout. The winner of the shootout gets a bonus point (two in total). By your binary "winner" logic, surely the teams that win a penalty shootout should get the normal three points, and the loser none? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:44, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

If you check-out here, the games v Israel are shown as.........draws.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Don’t get smart with me “talking to a brick wall”. Believe me the feeling is very much mutual. The Scottish League Cup is an incredibly unique system and personally a silly one.

By your logic, if a match in a Champions League, World Cup or even Play Off semi final goes to penalties, no matter who wins the teams should both progress or share the trophy, because it was a draw?

Penalties are a method used to determine the winner of a tie. That’s fact. You can’t hide away from that. So this brick wall stands firm and you can take your cheek and jog on. You can all agree with each other if you like. I happily admit when I’m wrong, you don’t know me. But on this occasion, I’m 110% correct. Craig5991 (talk) 09:56, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• FIFA don't agree. Consider this article, which mentions that the Netherlands could still finish the 2014 World Cup undefeated if they won the third-place playoff, having been knocked out on penalties in the semi-final. UEFA ignore shoot-outs and count such games as draws when calculating club coefficients. And try collecting your winnings from a bookie after you bet on Scotland to win ... Black Kite (talk) 10:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

No bother troops, next time I see a penalty shootout about to start I’ll just turn the telly off and go to bed early, because I know the outcome of that match was a draw. Thanks a lot, really helped open my eyes there. I now understand football much better than I did before! Craig5991 (talk) 10:09, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

If, say, a cup final ends in a draw, the match itself was a draw, and the shoot-out then determines which team wins the tournament and gets the trophy. The result of the match itself remains a draw. A link has been shared above (multiple times, as it happens) to an official document issued by FIFA specifically stating this -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

If a cup final finishes after 120 minutes as a draw, and the team who win a penalty shootout win the trophy, they’ve won. That’s it. Finished. You can bring up FIFA all you like, but it’s fact. End of. Period. Done. Craig5991 (talk) 11:41, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Scotland did not win the game. They drew the game, and a penalty shootout was held to decide who went through to the final. Scotland won that and went through, but the statistical result of the match after 120 minutes is a draw. I'm sure you are very capable of understanding the distinction, so instead you are wilfully ignoring it despite multiple people trying to persuade you several times in different ways, including pointing out that FIFA counts these matches as draws and that's why Wikipedia does too. The addition of debatable content added to the site is dealt with by editor consensus, and as you may have seen this issue was brought up again at the football project due to your inputs, with agreement that a draw is the way it gets recorded. So in terms of editing the page, it's you against everyone else who edits football stuff, so you won't win. It really makes no difference to anyone's lives and yet we've all spent a fair amount of time over the last 50 hours or so looking at it. Please move on. Crowsus (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)