Talk:Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 4, 1963)

Title change

I have changed the name of this page from Steve Smith (hockey) to Steve Smith (Philadelphia Flyers/Buffalo Sabres defenseman), as the original title in no way disambiguated this player from the other, more prominent Steve Smith who played in the NHL. — GT 15:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• Masterhatch has undone my changes outright without offering any explanation. Hopefully one will be forthcoming soon, as it is rude to act unilaterally against consensus without explanation. — GT 05:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC):

Yes, it is rude but since i wasn't aware of a previous discussion, i saw the change as a bad edit and reverted it out. Masterhatch 02:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, that's ok, just in the future when you revert someone's edits (especially when they put some time into them) try to at least make a note somewhere where they can see it explaining it. I understand in this case and I shouldn't have called you rude as you were acting in good faith. — GT 07:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

• Anyone who'd like to participate in this discussion and weigh in either way, please go here. — GT 21:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was It's been two weeks and appears to be a clear concensus of Oppose. -Djsasso (talk) 23:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Here's the deal: there are two people by name of "Steve Smith" who have played in the NHL. Both were defencemen, both have Canadian citizenship, both played for multiple teams, and both were born in 1963. The main difference is that this one was born in Canada and the other one was born in Scotland. I previously had the page at Steve Smith (Canadian-born ice hockey player), but it was moved to its current name. The current name mentions that he was a defencemen and born in 1963, but these facts do not disambiguate him from the other guy. The previous name was shorter and we should strive to keep it as snappy as possible when we disambiguate. Snocrates 06:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support "defenceman b. 1963" does no disambiguation at all, serving only to lengthen the title. –Pomte 11:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose There was already a concensus gaining discussion at the WP:Hockey project to have it as Steve Smith (ice hockey) and James Stephen Smith which is his real name and causes the least disambig issues. When in disambig situations real name should be used where possible. -Djsasso (talk) 18:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
  • He is not known by that name so it is clearly inappropriate. He is known as "Steve Smith". We don't use full names just to disambiguate when they are not known by that name. We use the name the person is known by, plus a disambiguation term, if needed. Incidentally, it would be nice if editors would restrain themselves from moving pages undergoing a formal move proposal. It tends to mess up the links for the proposal. Somehow you've managed to reverse the talk pages for both players now!! Snocrates 21:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I was thinking the same thing when you moved them from the original name to your new name. You should have proposed your move before changing the name in the first place, because your request isn't really to change between yours and Mayumashu's names but to change from the name that the hockey project came up with and your own. There is a Steve Smith disambiguation page so using his real name is not an issue as people who search for Steve Smith will still easily find him. The talk pages are fixed. I am not sure how they got backwards but they are fixed now. -Djsasso (talk) 14:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
      • There's nothing that says moves can't take place w/o discussion. However, once a formal proposal is under way, it's not a good idea to perform a move b/c is preempts a formal process. The use of the full name is an issue when it is contrary to WP conventions, which it is. Snocrates 21:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
        • Actually it is not, convention states that full names should be used before resorting to bracketed disambiguators. This is the reason why we use middle names in article titles prior to resorting to bracketed disambiguators. As to the moves, yes controversial moves should not be made prior to having a discussion, its states as much on the move page. A quick look at this page and the millions of names that it has gone through would indicate that any move is a controversial one. -Djsasso (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
          • Looks like you need to look at the conventions a bit closer ... That's OK, I'm used to dealing with people who commonly make the same mistake. Cheers, Snocrates 21:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: The disamibguation page and the {{for}} template make it clear which is the correct article for anyone arriving at the wrong one. --JD554 (talk) 14:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: Things are just fine the way they are. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: I am not a big fan of how this is disambiguated now. However, I believe that the suggestion is not an improvement and I personally can't think of anything better. I'd be willing to support an alternate, but no one could think of anything good the last time this was discussed. -- JamesTeterenko (talk) 17:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: cumbersome proposal is not a better disambiguation. Flibirigit (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Confusion over talk pages

Owing to page moves while the WP:RM discussion was in process regarding Steve Smith (ice hockey) and James Stephen Smith, there is now some disagreement over which talk page is which.

MediaWiki does not handle this particular situation well, as it rewrites some links but not others when it moves a page. IMO further page moves that separate the article and talk pages will just confuse things further. I also advise against any further moves to the affected pages until the current requested move discussions are closed.

Fortunately, both requested moves seem certain to fail, so it's not necessary to untangle things. Andrewa (talk) 23:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Hans Johan Andersson which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 7 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 4, 1963). Consensus that disambiguating by full date of birth is preferable to disambiguating by birthplace. This discussion also resulted in consensus to move Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Scotland) to Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 30, 1963), primarily on the basis of WP:CONSISTENT. Participants found that the month-day format was the preferable WP:ENGVAR for the Scottish-born player, as he spent his career and the bulk of his life thus far in North America. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

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Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Canada) → Steve Smith (ice hockey, born 1963 in Canada) – Dab from Steve Smith (ice hockey, born 1962). Probably one of the ugliest disambiguators there is, but that's life. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• For the curious, please also note Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Scotland) (born 1963). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Support: Full disambiguation seems helpful to avoid confusion. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed, but would support the nomination Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Canada) → Steve Smith (ice hockey, born 1963 in Canada) if paired with Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Scotland) → Steve Smith (ice hockey, born 1963 in Scotland) since both main title headers should be analogous — either the same birth year is indicated for both men or the birth year is indicated for neither man. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think that's an expression of support, not opposition. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  No, Roman Spinner thinks neither or both Steve Smiths or neither should be dabbed by year, rather than just one.

  That's a reasonable position - it would say that both are first competing for the title "Steve Smith (ice hockey, born 1963)" and then dabbed further by adding birth country, and I'm fine with following it. But I see the other position - that two men are competing for the title "Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Canada)" and one is disambiguated by adding birth year whereas the one not born in Canada has no other contenders so doesn't need to be, just as compelling. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I can go either way on the title of the other article as well. Probably someone looking at the disambiguation page might scratch their head wondering why the titles don't look more consistent, so it's a reasonable position to take. It's just that when I read the remark for the first time, I was scrutinizing the description of what Roman would support after saying they opposed the proposal, and was frustrated trying to find a difference of details that wasn't there (as far as this article is concerned). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment There's also the possibility of PDABbing Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Scotland) to Steve Smith (ice hockey). 3x Stanley Cup champion, gets about 85% of pageviews; the other two have little notability. The fact that he was born in Scotland - he moved to Canada when he was 2 years old[1] - has nothing to do with his career. 162 etc. (talk) 01:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. While it makes for a long disambiguation tag, the place of birth and year are both needed to disambiguate from the other two players. 162 etc. (talk) 01:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Update I'll instead support the full DOB disambiguation discussed below. 162 etc. (talk) 17:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Support a move instead to Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 4, 1963) (which is already a redirect) and move Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Scotland) to Steve Smith (ice hockey, born 30 April 1963), as I believe that birth places should only be listed in the title if both people were born on the same day. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 03:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

No objection to Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 4, 1963), but Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 30, 1963) should be used for the other article. He represented Canada internationally, even though he briefly lived in Scotland as a toddler, no need for the British ENGVAR. 162 etc. (talk) 04:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, the article for the Scottish player uses the day–month date format, so the title should do the same. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 05:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I've updated the article to Canadian date style, per MOS:TIES. 162 etc. (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. As an alternative option, would also support Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Canada) → Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 4, 1963) paired with Steve Smith (ice hockey, born in Scotland) → Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 30, 1963), per JohnCWiesenthal regarding the general form of the main title headers and per 162 etc. regarding birthdate form. Since WP:ENGVAR birthdate is decided on a case-by-case basis, in the case of Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 30, 1963), he appears, at age nearly 61, to be a Canadian or American born in Scotland, rather than a Scottish player who temporarily joined Canadian or American teams before returning to his native Scotland. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I am fine with disamiguating by full DOB and don't care about how the date is formatted. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 4, 1963) and Steve Smith (ice hockey, born April 30, 1963). Not great, but better than the alternatives. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.